People know me will say Kurt is passionate about DOD and I love the game.

Can you imagine DOD:S can support 64 players server... just in case you’re wondering where are all the players playing. Here is a simple link that you can see it your self and the truly picture of competitiveness online gaming.

http://www.game-monitor.com/

I’m not sure when DOD:S will release another stock map, as for custom mappers we need to stay together and help/support each other; creating different game play and unique maps.

Here is a comment I’m getting all the time on my gaming community >>> DOD:S maps looks all the same, urban and town maps, over and over again. Why not think outside the box? Also server operator and admin is having nightmares on Super mega map download, please try to keep the map size reasonable.

If your map is 50mb and times 32 players that’s is 1.6 gigabytes downloading all the same time, I know about Bzip but a lot players just don’t want to wait for the download. If that continues server operators will need T1 or T3 service.

Who ever is still doing mapping for DOD:S need your understanding and support, a lot of them have moved on and gone from the community. So for the love of the game please help each other >>> be nice and kind.

From all my heart, BIG THANKS to all the mappers for your efforts and contributions to the DOD gaming community!!!! OK I have said enough from my heart and now I will go back to my dark and scary cave.

Cheers & solute, Kurt

Dark and scary cave....lol....

Always appreciated, Kurt.

Amen Kurt, amen

Working at it right now, sir!

:)

Been playing this game for almost 6 years now, so yeah... there's simply no way not to stick with it. :D

Probably it would be an idea to have a "request" sticky where every still active mapper can enter a wish list for textures, models, sounds,... whatever! There's a not too small chance that someone else already has just exactly what you need.

That would be "helping each other" at it's best. :)

Greets,

Albatros

Originally posted by -=SS=- Kurt
Here is a comment I’m getting all the time on my gaming community >>> DOD:S maps looks all the same, urban and town maps, over and over again. Why not think outside the box? Also server operator and admin is having nightmares on Super mega map download, please try to keep the map size reasonable.
The problem is that to keep the filesizes small, mappers HAVE to use the stock textures and stock models, etc. If you use too many customs, your filesize skyrockets. Bummer, i know, because then everything looks the same.

What happened to the good o'l downloading before I play theory?
:rolleyes:

I feel I have supported dod mappers for years, yet only a few of my
textures ever make it in to a map.
I think there is a lot of mappers that does not dear to use anything
unless it looks like the original map stuff.
That makes for major boringness factor in my book.

But then again, if it is affecting filesizes to much I can understand that to.

Looks like boring is tha winnah! :(

See Spine, dijon came in at 67 Mb unzipped. It's using about 20 Mb of custom content. that's way too much for servers that don't use bzip, and for those that do, people don't want to spend 2-3 minutes downloading a map.

To me the reasonable download time for people is about 30 seconds. And that can only be done with 100% stock content. Of course I don't apply this to my own maps, but I couldn't care less.

Maps these days should never break the 40 Mb barrier, cubemaps included, or they'll see massive drops in players from download times.

As for downloading before playing, that was "fine" before because that was your only choice. Steam didn't exist and you just had to do that. People are lazy, especially when it comes to their leisure time, so now they expect it to be automatic and to be fast.

That's why the only solution I could find is the eternal "Steam should support custom content". First in the news update each week, but first and foremost by dealing with custom content as they do with games and mods, that is by allowing preloads of maps. For example, you get a news update that this map worth mentioning just came out, you click on the link and it either gets downloaded by Steam, or is put on hold until you're done playing and the download resumes itself.

That way, the next time you join a server, you already have that map.

well with dod koln it's a pain coz in all official maps they use models mostly for broken buildings.

Give me a intact broken building in dod_koln :(

I would love at some point to have a lot of custom stuff, and tbh with that many buildings broken, i could use some custom textures.

Something I'll invest into when I know the map game play works.

Do we have a average map size with stock textures and models?

Another thing is a lot of map quality is quite poor in detail. Fair enough it's prob time factor and being on bill mapping.

Think we need to put together a mapping team. That way maps could be made in weeks and not months.

dod_koln for example I've done all the layout and decided on all building height. If we were on a team I could just assign a building per person and voila. Tonnes done.

I just don't want to end a map lacking in comparison to official maps.

Well I had this idea before and I think it should be brought up again. An unoffical mapper pack that all the mappers can use and is distributed either on bzip fast dl or something the client can download. The pack would use contributed custom textures and models, as new textures or models are added they go into the pack, and it's distributed. Of course there would have to be someone to manage this content and keep some form of quality control. Then the mapper would not bspzip this content into his map as most clients who play customs would have it, if something was added it would be distributed on map download. I don't know if it's feasible but it would sure help manage the custom content community.

Originally posted by Furyo
That's why the only solution I could find is the eternal "Steam should support custom content". First in the news update each week, but first and foremost by dealing with custom content as they do with games and mods, that is by allowing preloads of maps. For example, you get a news update that this map worth mentioning just came out, you click on the link and it either gets downloaded by Steam, or is put on hold until you're done playing and the download resumes itself.

That way, the next time you join a server, you already have that map.

I love this idea and wish it were true, but I see a massive lack of support from valve on this stuff, it's like "here's the tools cya guys later". I think if something of good quality is released it should get a mention and perhaps a download link from valve but don't expect any help from Valve with stuff like this as they are busy with making new stuff and as a community, we need to manage these things on our own. That being said I quit dod mapping until valve fixes some of the issues people have been complaining about for over a year now. Once those issues are addressed I will start mapping for dod again.

My idea way back when was all mappers should use .res files when distributing there maps. Ok so "XYZ" makes a map with Ranson's 88 in it. Then "ZYX" makes a map with Ranson's 88 in it also. Now as long as the mapper made the .res file right, and didn't change the default file directory structure that Ranson setup for the 88, the players would only have to download it once.

Maybe some guys don't want there content readily available to users, could be an issue for mappers if they don't realize they put custom content in there map, also similar filenames would become an issue too, and end users have a greater possibilites to see the purple and black checkerboard if server admins dont know what they are doing, which is bound to happen.

Hi Propaganda,

I understand and respect your concern on HL SDK/Hammer. What I want to point out is the DOD community with many of your friends need you, Hammer has problems and most of us all know it too and we try to work around it.

I’m not sure if you used Win 95 compare to Win XP it came a long way and went through growing pain for over 12 years. Hammer is no different; I have no idea when HL developer will fix the application problems. Do you remember Kustom Kettle? How many players and our friends played there, what happen to them all? We played your map over and over again supporting you and had lot of fun.

Please reconsider returning to DOD:S mapping, hope you can help out your old friends to keep the game alive and fun.

As always thanks!!!

Cheers, Kurt

Originally posted by -=SS=- Kurt
I understand and respect your concern on HL SDK/Hammer.
What I always wondered is: does valve use the same version of hammer/tools as they let us use? If this is the case, no wonder why things are always late.

Originally posted by bone450
What I always wondered is: does valve use the same version of hammer/tools as they let us use? If this is the case, no wonder why things are always late.

HAHA...

i cant even count how many times hammer as just disappeared from my screen... thank god.. i mean valve for autosave.

I know this thread is a couple of months old, but its a good one and ties in with some of my whirling thoughts heh.

I second Kurts call to ye Prop..and we are all glad ye did decide to map again ;P Cheers!


People know me will say Kurt is passionate about DOD and I love the game.
From all my heart, BIG THANKS to all the mappers for your efforts and contributions to the DOD gaming community!!!! OK I have said enough from my heart and now I will go back to my dark and scary cave.

Cheers & solute, Kurt


That's why the only solution I could find is the eternal "Steam should support custom content". First in the news update each week, but first and foremost by dealing with custom content as they do with games and mods, that is by allowing preloads of maps. For example, you get a news update that this map worth mentioning just came out, you click on the link and it either gets downloaded by Steam, or is put on hold until you're done playing and the download resumes itself.

That way, the next time you join a server, you already have that map.

Furyo, or anyone else, has this ever actually been put to Valve? If not, can it be..and would it be listened to? Do we have more chance of success having our dods devs take up our case..?

[general rambling]

I get the impression, but thats all it is as i dont have a clue, based on updates that break things the community made in terms of customisation; that Valve doesnt mind much what the community do to try and improve things for the community..ie they dont mind either way. I dont mean this comment to sound harsh at all so please dont take it that way. (note i said mind, not care) Is this fair to say or not? yep they put their employees to work on other games, yep, its their game; as well as being our game..although i guess we just have claimed an 'emotional' right while they have the actual rights :P

Can we be enthusiastic and ideally optimistic that we the community and 'those in power' can be interested to work together to improve things....? Or is it just a lonely and unrealistic dream?

Were there ever (or are there still?) channels whereby ideas etc (not just for dods, but for valve as well) can be funneled through to the Devs..who in turn maybe can funnel those to Valve..? Again, my next comment shouldnt be taken as any form of critisism, i note that at least one of the devs appears to read these forums regularily (*wavey* hi :) So even if there isnt much public posting etc from the team, i assume things may still filter across?

[/general rambling]
ok i hope that lot didnt come out to convoluted or negative, as that is the opposite of my intent.

I know there are a good number of us here who love the DoDS community, and it in itself is good. I guess my question is, how much can our community achieve...?

EDIT: or rather..what is the limit of how much our community can achieve..?
(the amazing quality of some of our custom maps and their use; and the brilliant mods that people design, attest to just how much our community can achieve)

I get the impression, but thats all it is as i dont have a clue, based on updates that break things the community made in terms of customisation

Good point pistoleer, tbh I feel that valve could care less about what the community does to make things better. With every update something breaks, they don't bother to look at compatibility with mods or customizations and they are not required to I suppose, it does however show where they stand on custom content or mods. It gets annoying having to update everything else when steam updates.

Well, should they test for compatibility with customizations? I mean, does Honda poll the aftermarket parts industry before they release a new Civic model? No, it would be pointless and a huge waste of time. With that said, note that they dont have to anything, but look at what companies like Toyota are doing with their Scion line to encourage customizing, and those cars are selling like hotcakes...

Edit: What I get most annoyed with isnt the updates breaking customizations, it's updates breaking Valve's own development tools. Understandably, Hammer is low on the update list, but it's full of bugs, making it worse for people to make custom content.

I just wanted to clarify...while i agreed that updates breaking custom mods can be frustrating..that wasnt meant to be the crux of my post by any means.

I was wondering more about the relationship potential between us, the DoDS community and the Devs and Valve.

I guess my question is, how much can our community achieve...?


Though it is obvious that dod:s is on the bottom of valve's priority list, I think the situation itself lends more responsibility to the hands of server admins. Most of the custom content servers aren't picky and play maps that are absolute crap and when a player makes a statement of their preference they get that "if you don't like it then don't play it" bull**** as if I'm unsure of my rights in the free world. I'm sick and tired of these "respect the admin" power trippers too. I'm supposed to respect someone who's using the fact that they put down cash each month for a video game server as a reason I MUST respect them? And then I'm supposed to like the map cycles chosen by these idiots?

Last night I was trying to join a server for the first time (because I noticed it was playing the new cherbourg), I had to download 100+ mb of pantera and metallica mp3s just to be able to play there. Not only is that careless and inefficient, but when I made a comment to them about its deterrence to players letting it finish, they teased me about it.

wow nave, you pretty much summed up the problem.

As far as our impact goes, I'm not sure. We need a big red phone, so that when we're in trouble and have problems/suggestions we can call Valve...

and when a player makes a statement of their preference they get that "if you don't like it then don't play it" bull**** as if I'm unsure of my rights in the free world. I'm sick and tired of these "respect the admin" power trippers too. I'm supposed to respect someone who's using the fact that they put down cash each month for a video game server as a reason I MUST respect them?
Nave, are you being satirical? Because dude - find another server. Or run your own! Sounds like you have some good ideas.

Nave, are you being satirical? Because dude - find another server. Or run your own! Sounds like you have some good ideas.

I'm not being satirical at all. I'm saying that for me, as a noncompetitive dod player, buying my own server is a terrible idea - there are already more servers than there are enough players to fill them. If I bought one it would sit there empty like all the others and I'd be stoked on the way I'm running it, all the great maps I could choose, and I could play all day long, by myself! But of course, there'd be a monthly fee for this too.

When I get into a server that is bothering me, I do try to find another, but it's hard. Many unfortunately aren't friendly fire and when you're stoked that you've found one that is, you get to run around in fear of a teammate turning into a time bomb or a psychedelic beacon. Just in general, there are many things that server admins do that I find obtrusive and not what I want when I play dod. Just like when people started dissing on Source when it came out, or when dod went retail, people said things like "don't play it if you don't like it". What if Valve used that strategy? We'd have a serious crap game. Just in general, the "find another server" argument is restrictive to growth and progression. Did Rosa Parks just find another bus?:p

Not to beat a dead dog, but taking a look at this weeks map stats are interesting.

MAR7 - MAR14

1. dod_anzio+_b4 - alternate version of official
2. dod_orange_fight_arena - extremely simple
3. 3xi_trainmap - same map
4. dod_thunder_b3 - alternate version of official
5. dod_salerno - alternate version of official
6. dod_coire_rc3 - remake of dod classic map
7. dod_anzio+_b3 - alternate version of official
8. dod_strand_rc1 - remake of dod classic map
9. dod_salerno_rc3 - remake of dod classic map
10. dod_solitude_comp - remake of dod classic map

I find that most players prefer maps that they are familiar with and feel uncomfortable in new environments. Granted the remakes are successful because they are proven layouts, but those two anzio maps and thunder being up there?

We shan't be too concerned with download times, since it's apparent that they're willing to download something that they're familiar with.

Did Rosa Parks just find another bus?:p

That's a bad analogy and you know it.

I had a server for two months that ran the best customs that were out at the time, about a year ago and I killed it cause no one wanted to play customs. The server was always empty. The majority of people do stick to familiarity, and another problem is the steam download progress bar between maps. Sometimes it looks as if it isn't doing anything and thats usually when people hit cancel and give up on the custom map.

I think its fair to say that there are now more than enough excellent maps to offer a broad and varied gaming experience to most players.

Map cycle choice and the ability to deliver them quickly has also improved vastly over the past six months.

The problem is that for a server to be successful, map choice and delivery is no longer enough. With the vast amount of servers out there, the ones that are succesful - and there are plenty that are - are the ones that manage to create a consistently enjoyable atmosphere and pleasant playing environment for players of all abilities.

The key to promoting these kind of environments is simple. Good, sensible administration. This can take the shape of in-game admins offering advice and encouragement or sensible use of the admin tools that are available.

In my experience, too many server administrators install the stock Mani config and then watch the gameplay disappear beneath a sea of blinded, frozen and burnt players. In my experience this kind of 'self-administration' rarely leads to a happy server environment.

What we are finding now, is that nearly two years down the line, players have become bored with playing the same stock maps over and over. This is where well-thought-out map choice plays its part. As smashingpunk can testify, installing the latest or 'better' maps is no guarantee to keeping players interested.

The map should be relevant to the community, well-made, even-sided, have a sprinkling of originality and complement the other maps in the cycle.

As mappers, we have to continue creating the high-standard maps that we do, in the knowledge that they are appreciated by many players and communities, and hope that server admins play their part in helping the DOD:Source fraternity become as well thought of as DOD classic.

^^ A wise man right there. In fact we have quite a few of them here :)

I have to say that it does hearten me to hear and see so many people reading of the same page.. that there are mappers who are producing quality maps, not just for themselves..but actually with the community in mind. In turn there are (and this...we need more of!) server admins who are dedicated to running these quality maps our mappers make. Finally there are the dedicated players who thanks to both the mappers and server admins, can appreciate and enjoy the thought that went into the maps...and so we end up with the Circle of DoDS :P

A quick question, kinda of topic.. which takes precident...the class settings built into a map, or the default class settings on a server?

Id love to see a way to let the map settings override server default settings.. (obviously still allow the SA to override with custom settings)

Too many SA's do not bother to actually tweak their setups to provide optimum gameplay for players, according to their number of player slots... i see this again and again as being a factor for people to leave a particular map, even on a very popular server.

SA's setup sensible class configs on a per map basis.

Mappers..if its possible or useful (see above question)..dont be afraid to setup class configs into the map.

One example that springs to mind, cause it happened last night, was a map which was mostly open and gave the 2 sniper slots per side a ridiculously strong advantage. So much so the potential excitement of the map withered and people left. All it would have taken was to restrict snipers on said map and reduced mg's to 1 per side and all would have been dandy. Thats just an example, im sure we all have more.

hmm, one other thing i was wondering, and it has probably been said before.... but... what about a theme or campaign of maps being made...? Then SA's actually put the maps into their cycle in the right order... ? even better would be if axis won.. a certain next map would run, or if allies won..then a different map would run.. all playing out within a 3 or 4 map 'campaign' Each one could progressively get harder for the one side or the other... it could model a campaing in history... (im sureits been suggested before but sorry i cant use the search funtion atm due to my intranet :/)

Keep up the entheusism, its great to see!

Though it is obvious that dod:s is on the bottom of valve's priority list, I think the situation itself lends more responsibility to the hands of server admins. Most of the custom content servers aren't picky and play maps that are absolute crap and when a player makes a statement of their preference they get that "if you don't like it then don't play it" bull**** as if I'm unsure of my rights in the free world...........................
Not only is that careless and inefficient, but when I made a comment to them about its deterrence to players letting it finish, they teased me about it.
Although I agree that server admin need to choose maps that their community like and keep the map versions up to date, the place to offer an opinion on server mapcycles, policy etc in is the server's associated forums, admin email or pm, not during gameplay. People are in server to play, not debate policy with "the new guy".

Last night I was trying to join a server for the first time (because I noticed it was playing the new cherbourg), I had to download 100+ mb of pantera and metallica mp3s just to be able to play cl_downloadfilter "nosounds" is your friend

Not to beat a dead dog, but taking a look at this weeks map stats are interesting. We shan't be too concerned with download times, since it's apparent that they're willing to download something that they're familiar with.
I think its more a case of different niche markets.

CAL / TPGS Map of the Week
dod_anzio+_b4 ( dod_anzio+_b3 - preseason week 3 map)
dod_thunder_b3 (preseason week 2 map)
dod_solitude_comp ( solitude_match preseason week 1 map)
dod_salerno_rc3 (dod_salerno final version)
dod_coire_rc3 ( was motw choice, new version is cal_coire)

Specialty Map
dod_strand_rc1 ( beach map, the best of the bunch :) )

Arena Map - small download, suitable for "drop-in game"
dod_orange_fight_arena (the first orange clone)
3xi_trainmap - (the original orange map)

Plugins, maps and policies are not the "whim" of an admin.
They are tailored to the established community. Mapcyles need to be balanced; new with stock, unique gameplay with classic CQC, rifle friendly with auto weighted, class limits determined by map.

We try to follow the following criteria for selecting custom maps
FPS - aim for as good or better than Donner with 24 players
Gameplay - balanced for teams, spawn protection, no exploits. Is it unique?
Appearance - does it take advantage of Source engine ?
Fun - this can outweigh any combination of the above

mapname.cfg - will class limits help balance the gameplay?
mp_timelimit can make a map more enjoyable too
mapcycle / maplist / votemaplist : Keep these balanced . More popular and new maps in the mapcycle. As they get stale, move them to votemaplist. In a couple of weeks, players vote them back in. Archive older or specialty or borderline maps in maplist.txt file for admin to load up on request.
Feedback ! Get server feedback to the mappers.

Policies on a server reflect community also, whether it be no holds barred or has some semblance of respect for others.
Some sort of feedback process needs to be in place between the community and admin. Special events etc dont hurt either.

A lot of effort is required to keep a community thriving.
And basically that is why, the admin and players take offense when the new guy pops into game and starts complaining or offering "advice", disrupting game play. If that player becomes a regular and participates in the community, their advice is given more credence.

Very well said. Thanks.

Hi All,

Nice discussion, lots valid pointers and good comments, hopefully someone form Valve or steam will take notes and action. Before the last update we had 1600+ DOD:S servers were online, after the update we have 1200+ servers. Not sure what happened? 75% of existing servers are running empty, which is a troublesome sign for the game.

I still remember when dod_argetan first released all the servers were filling up quickly, interest for the map were very high. It shows players willing to come back to the game. Since the last release of Colmer and Jagd; we haven’t heard anything from Valve. Wishful thinking to see a new stock map every 3 months… LOL how likely that would happen?

Each gaming community we have the following group of categories, what do they want?

Players – enjoy a trouble free game and do well in the game.

Server management – Low cost, user friendly & easy to manage and no complaints.

mappers – hold the key for successes to the community, must be motivated, dedicated and passionate.

The game it self take so much resources, how many people would buy a PC just to play DOD:S? and consistently need to upgrade your system just to keep up with the rest of the gamers.

Also It’s very hard for someone to rent a DOD:S game server thinking they can just get it working in no time, it take a lot of time, money and efforts, then you need to build the community with members, regular players, and trust; ensure the server stay respectful, fun and enjoyable. The biggest killer is admin abuse or harassment that could kill the community very quickly. I’m very lucky surrounded by very good friends and believes in me doing the right things and decisions.

Even if you have a game server, now you have to get a web site running and host map fast download… for example I have 4 web hosts support my community, 1 for web site, 2 for map fast downloading and 1 for backup.

Here are some other pointers:

1) Some players don’t have a computer, so they pay flat rate to play the game at gaming café…etc, but download is not allowed.
2) So many servers are coming online in China, Russia, and Japan… etc Do they even know we exist here?
3) What about the language factor? How many time you see guys on here making fun of people from over sea trying to communicate to us? Not nice…
4) Mapper should have all their custom stuff within the BSP file, it’s a nightmare for server admin to copy and paste them. New server admin would have no idea what they need to do. That make your map unplayable.
5) Some of your custom stuff are blocked by Norton, and fire wall… etc so pink texture is in the map.

I’m a gamier loving DOD and care so much about the community; I posted to support our custom mappers, because without regular release of stock maps and limited trouble free custom maps will just drive more players to other games, Who ever want to stay and still loving the game will stay. Within my community we are collaborating on map design and making new maps, I think that is a good idea but who would be interested? Hands up please… Another suggestion… if anyone needs a place to host their map download I’m willing to provide that, no registration required. As long as the game & I’m alive the map will be there to download.

Come on guys and ladies, lets work together and make our community better… Thanks for listening.

Cheers, Kurt

When you speak high level gaming language or technical advanced, please make sure the community with less knowledge understand you, otherwise you might have your lights on, but no one is home. Kind like a teach speaking to a 4 years old kid… Some of us have been around for a long time understand you, but new admin and players have no idea what you’re talking about, so make sure you explain it properly and redefine your post. So they would understand they do have an option and solution for their community.

Another complaint I hear all the time is no mini map, my friend is in Afghanistan and he doesn’t have a mini map going out fighting the Taliban’s every day. A map is yours to discover, so look around… Personally I turn off my mini map on all maps. It’s too congested on the top left corner already. It’s not like you’re at Disney world and it’s a must to have one to guide you to the different events.

Also why does every map need to be sourcified? More displacement the bigger the map size; if it’s not done properly players can get under the map. Plus I’m not in the game to buy a house or land for farming. It’s a game the fun factor need to be top priority. That is why the orange maps are taking over the community.

Hope it helps…

Regards, Kurt

When you speak high level gaming language or technical advanced, please make sure the community with less knowledge understand you, otherwise you might have your lights on, but no one is home. Kind like a teach speaking to a 4 years old kid…
I guess I was addressing my comments to interested server operators, those who have forked out cold hard cash to sustain a server and would have the interest and incentive to research the basics of server operation.
Any server operator who runs custom maps of any sort, by default must know what a mapcycle and maplist are or they would be stuck with the stock maps.
Most players who frequent these forums are aware of what autoexec.cfg and config.cfg files are. If they dont, there are already excellent stickies on these forums.

Also why does every map need to be sourcified? More displacement the bigger the map size; if it’s not done properly players can get under the map.
Solution: If you dont have the admin or player base to monitor the server, only put quality customs on the server. No need to sacrifice quality for quantity.

Plus I’m not in the game to buy a house or land for farming. It’s a game the fun factor need to be top priority. That is why the orange maps are taking over the community.

Why not go back to DOD 1.3 if the "look" of the game is inconsequential ???

You are assuming that all players find orange maps "fun". :P

I see server admin do work around on the map, if the mapper did it right then we don’t need to do work around. Kind like the mapper didn’t clip the access the roof now players can get on top and kill players in their spawn. Since it’s a good map so admin will continue to run the map but admin must enforce player can’t go on the roof. What happen when no admin is on the server? Would you agree you will get complaints and players getting frustrated?

How many players have user.cfg file that is packed with things to turn features off to gain like 10 FPS? And Server.cfg file full of commands to fine tone the server.

My question is why Valve can’t just disable them if no one want it, with all the custom user.cfg and server.cfg it slow down the performance of the game server, because it has to regularly valid each player and match to server.cfg

Cheers, Kurt

LOL...

If that is the case... Why have custom maps just play the stock maps. I'm not sure why Walmart is still in business. maybe your are a high end quality person and never shop and Walmart.

Please think the wider angle; I hope you know not everyone eat burgers and pizza every week. It’s all about freedom of choices and options.

Rosie I know you are good with what you do and I respect that, can I make a suggestion? if you have some time you should try mapping, when that happens then you will know what I mean.

Thanks for your post and your contribution to the community…

Cheers, Kurt

At the risk of getting off topic .....................
if the mapper did it right then we don’t need to do work around. Kind like the mapper didn’t clip the access the roof now players can get on top and kill players in their spawn. Since it’s a good map so admin will continue to run the map but admin must enforce player can’t go on the roof. What happen when no admin is on the server? Would you agree you will get complaints and players getting frustrated?
- have enough admin on the roster so that there is an admin around 90% of the time
- enable votekick / voteban for those times an admin is not available. Even a 10 minute ban sends the riff raff off to another server
How many players have user.cfg file that is packed with things to turn features off to gain like 10 FPS?
If a player doesn't have the hardware to play games on the Source engine, then they need to tweak their configs. Nothing wrong with that. In fact it is in Valve's interest that they are able to.
League players tweak their configs for maximum fps, but that is a different issue. No one is looking at how nice the water appears or how realistic the buildings are during a match. There isnt any time, too busy dying ;)
My question is why Valve can’t just disable them if no one want it, with all the custom user.cfg and server.cfg it slow down the performance of the game server, because it has to regularly valid each player and match to server.cfg
Although I still think that making the default client cl_restrict_server_commands 1 was a mistake, Valve's introduction of server side cvars to restrict client rate/cl_cmdrate/cl_updaterate and file consistency is a bonus for the server admin and the players. It evens out the playing field.
Id love to be able to play with DX9, max video settings and 3dsky enabled all the time but plummeting fps on anzio bridge or argentan with the grenade stun is enough to make me turn off the game. The tweaked 10-15 fps boost makes it more enjoyable.

Rosie I know you are good with what you do and I respect that, can I make a suggestion? if you have some time you should try mapping, when that happens then you will know what I mean.
*LOL* I'm a scientist not an artist.
Not sure what you are getting at Kurt. I defintely appreciate the talent AND time mappers put into their creations, both as a server operator and player and as someone who cant draw a straight line with a ruler. ;)
It’s all about freedom of choices and options.
???? I think we are talking apples and oranges here Kurt.
Players obviously like the arena and minimalist maps and of course there is choice. Thats why there are 24/7 or 32 man or custom or arena or modded servers.
I thought we were discussing server operators introducing and supporting custom content to draw in new players and revitalize the game.
I dont have any problems with other server opeators philosophies.
Regards
Rosie

Last weekend my daughter made me a sandwich, it was messy and she had too much salt and black pepper but I still ate it, knowing that it will boost her confidence and encouraging her getting involved.

We still have lots of mappers in the community but it’s important to support the junior or new DOD:S mappers so they can learn and get better and one day they will make map might be good as official DOD:S stock maps.

If the map has problem just reply with professionalism comments, positive feed back always work well and stop the open trashing and bashing, because you would just start bad blood in the community. For the love of the game and for us to survive as a community >>> please support your custom mappers!!!

Thanks, Kurt

Your maps always find a spot on our server Kurt...even with too much salt and black pepper. ;)

Cheers.

LOL… Thanks for the support Pvt. Snail. Next time I should try it with BBQ sauce. Hey just wondering if you get Canadian bacon in Germany?

theville.org has been a Halflife gaming community for about 6 years now. The transition from 1.3 to source has been rocky to say the least. We are very Pro-custom-DoDS. We run all the good custom maps we can find along with the realism mod and COF mod and mani admin plugin. We play test maps for bugs and FPS problems before we put them on our pub server. We have all the maps on our fast download server. Our admins are experienced, fair, and cordial to all players. Server rules demand respect for all players at all times (no cussing, exploits, etc) TV1, our most popular source server, has decent daily traffic. We have a loyal group of players enlisted in our noncompetitive guilds. Our forums are full of good stuff, and our server ops are very responsive to requests. With allll that, we still dont have a full server 24/7. In fact, it rarely ever gets full =(

Pre-DoDS our 2 1.3 servers were full 24/7. The lack of traffic had us admins scrambling to distinguish our server apart from the sea of empites. Our ping has ALWAYS been good. We experimented with a few things. We had one of our 2 DoDS servers running 24/7 ava/flash/argentan - 0 traffic. We tried the stock rotation - got a little traffic. The only thing that actually brought new faces to our server was when we ran the stupid orange maps and 4 towers (I HATE 4 towers with a passion) =(. We figured out that the best solution was to have as many maps as possible available for voting. That in conjunction with a mix of stock and popular custom maps in the rotation seems to be the closest as we can get to attracting players to our server. We still have lots of empty hours.

I guess my whole point is... you can do everything and sill not get a decent population. I'm curious to know how these 24/7 strand servers and other servers got so popular? As far as I can tell my servers are just as good if not better than the average server out there.

So I ask you, how do I get people to come play your guys' beatiful maps on my servers?

What you’re experiencing is affecting 75% of the community; I know some very large clans are running empty compare to few years ago. Some servers are full most of the time is because they are supported by university kids that lives on campus. So they have lots of time and all know each other. Sleep, goes to classes, eat and playing DOD:S.

Some other server they allow everything, basically no rules. If you eliminate profanity and keep your server clean and respectful then you have just eliminated most of the kids. Trust me they know…

For my community I can see most are adults, because kids just can’t fit in. They want freedom from their parents a place to release their frustrations and DOD:S is a place they can do nude spray, messing and pushing around other kids.

My view is we haven’t seen the worst yet, I think another 500 servers will be shut down soon, it’s going to get a lot worst before it would get better, If we can survive depends on Valve if they are willing to make a commitment to provide additional resources to DOD:S… eh it’s all about money what is in for them to make DOD:S better, no money for them, if they create another game then they can charge and collect more $$$$$.

Also HL, COD and RO are all part of Activision, traded on Nasdaq - ATVI, the 3 games are in direct competition, what would they care if DOD:S is gone, they still have RO and COD. COD is supported my console games like Xbox 360 and PS3. I’m hoping I’m not scaring anyone, just the truth, and it’s out of our hands and control.

If the custom mappers can stay together, joint force and collaborate on designing and making new maps then our chances of surviving is much better.

Regards, Kurt

Hey Beeron
Looking at HLSW and visiting Ive found the busiest servers (real people, not bots) have:

- 32 man
- 24/7 ava/argentan/donner
- Mods - WC, realism
- specialty maps - beach or sniper
- "fun maps" - tower maps, orange maps
- stats
- players buy admin privileges - guarantees seed players
- quake sounds
- full tk punishments
- swearing, obscenity and porn sprays allowed


In other words, the server needs to support a niche market or have all the bells and whistles.

Wow I'm really surprised that none of you here mentioned Vapour. What's Vapour? It's a content delivery platform that can deliver mods, maps, and even stand-alone games. Here's the official site: http://www.vapour-online.com . (Note: You need to download and install .NET framework to make it work)

I think Vapour is especially good for Steam users because Vapour is very much like Steam.

Spread the word!!

Id be surprised if vapour online ever took off.... who wants two steams on their computer? It looks great for the mappers/modders but the players arent into downloading and installing and letting something else run "in the background" just so the mapping guys have an easier time distributing their content. Its a shame - truely



Oh and Thanks Rosie for that info. very interesting

Not to beat a dead dog, but taking a look at this weeks map stats are interesting.

MAR7 - MAR14

1. dod_anzio+_b4 - alternate version of official
2. dod_orange_fight_arena - extremely simple
3. 3xi_trainmap - same map
4. dod_thunder_b3 - alternate version of official
5. dod_salerno - alternate version of official
6. dod_coire_rc3 - remake of dod classic map
7. dod_anzio+_b3 - alternate version of official
8. dod_strand_rc1 - remake of dod classic map
9. dod_salerno_rc3 - remake of dod classic map
10. dod_solitude_comp - remake of dod classic map

I find that most players prefer maps that they are familiar with and feel uncomfortable in new environments. Granted the remakes are successful because they are proven layouts, but those two anzio maps and thunder being up there?

We shan't be too concerned with download times, since it's apparent that they're willing to download something that they're familiar with.

This is somewhere I feel I can offer a valid opinion to the server ops and mappers on these forums.

Most of the maps in the top ten custom list each week will be competitve maps, every single week. There are a lot more competitive players out there then people realize and these same players also frequent pub servers and other communities and end up requesting the maps you'll see on that top ten list week in and week out.

Watch the CAL rotation this season and you'll see maps like coire, anvil2, lennon, thunder, salerno and rails all make their stay at number one for a week.

Pub players and league players generally all like the same kind of maps, they want to get into the action quickly and start looking for people to kill. This is a topic I've discussed with many a mapper privately in the community as I've had the chance to work with them here and there and something that needs to be discussed in the open.

As much as I love seeing some of the amazing creations by some of you, you're going to end up making a beautiful map that will never be played or popular if you continue to make them so big. Please look over all the top maps and notice that even the popular stocks all share the same thing with the popular customs, people want smaller maps with limited jogging around the map.

Many mappers snub the league players that ask for help getting more league maps made but the proof is in the stats, league maps are popular because pub players actually enjoy the maps for the same reasons.

Please try and curb your desire to make the next huge masterpiece and work on a smaller scale if you want your map to be a popular choice.

Most of the maps in the top ten custom list each week will be competitve maps, every single week. There are a lot more competitive players out there then people realize and these same players also frequent pub servers and other communities and end up requesting the maps you'll see on that top ten list week in and week out.
Watch the CAL rotation this season and you'll see maps like coire, anvil2, lennon, thunder, salerno and rails all make their stay at number one for a week.
Pub players and league players generally all like the same kind of maps, they want to get into the action quickly and start looking for people to kill.

Yes, the league maps make the top 10 custom for a couple of weeks because of the number of clan players . The map for each week is mandatory. That doesn't mean its a clan's favourite or that pub players will like it. It just means that particular map is the match map and the teams are faithfully practicing... for that week.

The recent CAL maps are reworkings of 1.3 standards:
Coire, the railroads, anzio, donner, thunder, insecurity(cr44 adaptation) and solitude with argentan, anvil and stug being the only "breakout" maps.

These are all good for 6v6 play but pub servers are usually 20-32 man. Larger maps that support something beyond 2 heavies going one side and rifles going long are interesting and appreciated for the general DODS community.

The question still remains whether custom maps are not getting the play time because of inefficient advertisement and distribution or a true lack of interest.
Just my 1 cents.

Rosie, my comments were on the size of the maps, not that they are league maps actually.

The most popular maps seem to all be about the same size as the standards and as someone that wanders around various pub servers a lot, the most full 32 man servers always seem to be on Donner/Argentan/Avalance/Solerno/Anzio etc., all of about the same size and "breed" of map.

There will always be a few servers that successfully run customs because they have a large clan or group that only plays on that one server but the standards and a few small customs rule the rest of the busy ones.

I agree with Bennett, well said... Size of the map means in *MB does matter...

orange map is about 1MB and some custom maps are over 50MB+, if they don't have a host for map fast download then admin can use game server to handle the direct map download because the size of the map (*MB) is small.

Without a host for map fast download and the map is 80MB how do you think players on the server get all the custom maps?

Kurt

Im out
What on earth have I been doing or thinking ?
GG

Without a host for map fast download and the map is 80MB how do you think players on the server get all the custom maps I have twenty-two custom maps installed right now at a size of 738MB

Here's the kicker: My HDD is 40GB. Now, alot of people have HDD's that are in the 250GB and up range..if I can do it with my tiny 40GB, why can't someone do it with their HUGE 300GB?

Simply put..as said earlier ...people are too lazy. Go to Sunlits or DoD Federation and download some maps.

If Valve releases a map, you have to wait and download it. So, what's the big deal?

I don't think mappers should be forced to compromise their maps just because people can't wait for something to download or can't even be bothered to go to a site and download it themselves.

I agree with Bennett, well said... Size of the map means in *MB does matter...

orange map is about 1MB and some custom maps are over 50MB+, if they don't have a host for map fast download then admin can use game server to handle the direct map download because the size of the map (*MB) is small.

Without a host for map fast download and the map is 80MB how do you think players on the server get all the custom maps?

Kurt

This is not at all what I'm talking about. I really think people care more about the map layout and the action they can experience then the looks or how big the file size is.

I'm not saying this is everyone, I'm saying the general players, not people reading this mapping section.

Nominate some maps, get a giant pack together, Trypants has no problem hosting it for the community. Add some of the custom textures and models you want and the top 10 custom maps you think would work well. Maybe do them 5 at a time, one release per month.

Distribution isn't a huge issue, you can advertise it here and on clan sites quite easily.

DoD-F has a pack of what we considered (back when it was made) the best final versions of custom maps (final versions only) available. it's dated, so I'll look into making some more.

I don't think mappers should be forced to compromise their maps just because people can't wait for something to download or can't even be bothered to go to a site and download it themselves.

Shouldn't be so, but in fact it's just as you said.

I spend two thirds of my mapping work not creating architecture, but rather optimizing size and performance. While I can't expect people to upgrade their machines, I should be able to expect them to spend those three minutes downloading that 500-hours-of-work-map.


Now the big task is to change the pubber's mentality - maybe if someone used their connections to valve, there could be a monthly distribution of map-packs or something similar. That would help a lot.

Cheers,

Albatros

"insecurity(cr44 adaptation)" was this bouddha? When did the name change?

Anyways, lets not forget that alot of FPS players get hooked on MMORPGs, mainly World Of Warcraft, i've had friends disappear for months from playing that game. And who knows what other Matrix like games are out there, i mainly just play dods.

I think distribution is a big deal, mainly because it ties into advertising. I say maybe less than 30% of dods players download maps from websites. So how are the other 70% of the players supposed to know what your custom map looks like and more importantly, what it plays like? Word of mouth is the only thing i can think of. Thats how the orange thing got started. Imagine if your map was featured on A Steam Update Page, more people would give it a try.


By the way, has anyone approached Valve in a professional manner and asked if they can compile the best, finished user made custom maps and announce its release on steam. Not necessarliy host it, but just announce it. And have an advertising bubble in the steam pages that show dods, including the game profile and purchase page maybe even a video featuring the new content. It could read "Community Expansion Pack Included"

The best thing i can think of right now is to release this "community expansion pack" and drop the price to 14.99 for a limited time. That will rejuvenate dod until new valve content can be added, if there is ever going to be any? What i really want to see is a proper implementation of the "tank" maps by dod devs, and a tank map to go with it.

The other thing i thought of is similiar to the expansion pack but on a smaller scale. Valve could introduce a "Map of the Month" feature and distribute the best community maps one at a time, month by month, it will definitely cut back on bandwidth usage if thats what they are worried about. The 1st of every month a Steam Update news pops up with the map of the month and a detailed explanation of the map and a small bio of the maker. This way the best content will find its way in the hands of dod players through steam.

Both of those ideas require one thing though, cooperation with Valve and the community, which i have seen is very, very low on the communication side.

As far as mappers coming together to collaborate on projects, i am all for it.

edit:
LOL albatros we posted the same idea at the same time :D

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I'm too lazy to read back....
I think one of the main limiting factors in people downloading custom maps is the stupid download progress bar. It zips through the first 3 notches, but then pauses for a while. This is the point where people disconnect, because it gives the illusion that the download will take a while. Except that right after the short pause, the bar zips to the end and the map loads. If they (meaning Valve) would change the bar so it paused at the end of the line, rather than the beginning, i think more people would stick around, since they would see that the download is almost done.

I've almost fell victim to doing this on several occasions, until I reminded myself to wait a few more seconds for the bar to start moving again, which it does.

Albatros;1039461']Shouldn't be so, but in fact it's just as you said.

I spend two thirds of my mapping work not creating architecture, but rather optimizing size and performance. While I can't expect people to upgrade their machines, I should be able to expect them to spend those three minutes downloading that 500-hours-of-work-map.

Agreed mate, which is one thing i was hoping to discuss in this thread (http://www.dayofdefeat.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71710), along with the actual philosophy of who a map is designed for.


Albatros;1039461']
Now the big task is to change the pubber's mentality - maybe if someone used their connections to valve, there could be a monthly distribution of map-packs or something similar. That would help a lot.


Now we are talking!..see below..


By the way, has anyone approached Valve in a professional manner and asked if they can compile the best, finished user made custom maps and announce its release on steam. ....

Both of those ideas require one thing though, cooperation with Valve and the community, which i have seen is very, very low on the communication side.


ok! Now we are getting somewhere :D see my quote below which i made to try and restart this thread with a focus NOT on us just trying to cater to the masses to fill server slots, but more on our relationship with valve, and a focus in terms of custom mappers..



Furyo, or anyone else, has this ever actually been put to Valve? If not, can it be..and would it be listened to? Do we have more chance of success having our dods devs take up our case..?

Can we be enthusiastic and ideally optimistic that we the community and 'those in power' can be interested to work together to improve things....? Or is it just a lonely and unrealistic dream?

Were there ever (or are there still?) channels whereby ideas etc (not just for dods, but for valve as well) can be funneled through to the Devs..who in turn maybe can funnel those to Valve..?

I know there are a good number of us here who love the DoDS community, and it in itself is good. I guess my question is, what is the limit of how much our community can achieve..?


If possible, can we continue this thread in this theme of Valve and the Community please.. and move the talk about map making philosophy that some are having to this thread - The 'philosophy' of designing map size (http://www.dayofdefeat.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71710) please ;P cheers!

ps Dustin..ye are right there mate, it is an issue that im sure plays a part. Ive only noticed this since i got a Logitech g15 keyboard which has an lcd display..and i installed SirReal's plugin which allows me to see my network activity..so i can see if a server is giving me full bandwidth or a trickle :/ And yep, even if im getting 400kb/s down..the progress bar just hangs, then suddenly it fills up all at once. That would be good if Valve could address it.

Hi Pistoleer!

Interesting stuff, I'm gonna check out that thread and try to add my two cents :D.

I must have overlooked it because it's in the tutorial section, which I hardly ever visit, otherwise I'd definately have replied before.

Cheers,

Albatros

ps Dustin..ye are right there mate, it is an issue that im sure plays a part. Ive only noticed this since i got a Logitech g15 keyboard which has an lcd display..and i installed SirReal's plugin which allows me to see my network activity..so i can see if a server is giving me full bandwidth or a trickle :/ And yep, even if im getting 400kb/s down..the progress bar just hangs, then suddenly it fills up all at once. That would be good if Valve could address it.

I too have noticed this. Perhaps we could stand a chance with this suggestion since its incentive reaches beyond DOD into the actual steam interface, which is apparently still being updated. Speaking of which, the new chat interface and improved quality voice chat are great. You can actually tell the players apart by their voices rather than having to read their names.

Where is my easy button???

In the perfect world it would be a easy fix, unfortunately we all live in a very complex world. How many people go to washroom and wash their hand before leaving the washroom? We can’t change their attitude and habits we shouldn’t have too. Yes I always wash my hand… LOL

What we are talking about here is valid and it’s important to the community, nice to get it out and let the people can make a difference take some action. I want to see some motion and get a solution implemented. We have done a lot talking lets see some action… agree?

Pistoleer is working on the mapper/maps listing

Furyo is working on the map packs

Kurt will provide direct map download (ZIP or RAR format only) without registration. Players just don’t want to register, no need to click on 20 pages of advertising before it get to map download, then you see broken link or server busy. (Just to make it clear I’m not talking about sun-lite Rosie)

Anyone else can assist? Let see some hands up guys and ladies…

Thanks, Kurt

This has got me thinking.. (could be good, good be meh, ye tell me)

ive posted another idea here, if ye would like to check it out -

"List of DoDNet's Server Admins / Servers by Region" (http://www.dayofdefeat.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1039541#post1039541)

edit - also, continuing discussion on this thread and Valve and our relationship:


Valve's PR Manager Doug Lombardi stated in Computer Gaming World: "Day of Defeat: Source is an ongoing project that will receive constant updates through steam depending on community feedback. We're bringing players into the process: this way they feel a tighter affinity for the product". Day of Defeat's development team is indeed more active in the community than Valve's other teams (although members do tend to move between products), mostly on the official Day of Defeat forums source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_Defeat:_Source) Dont know how old that quote is though, andi cant find a citation for the one from Doug Lombardi

That is exactly the sort of thing i was talking about..and would love to know if this did happen / still happens / can happen again?

Just to prove a point DOD_foxhunt_source and dod_lerouge is very popular in my community, loving both maps. Why both of them was never released here and who made the maps? Do they know we are here and what happen if the map was released here and what would be your reaction? I was lucky my friend phooey and Pvt. Snail told me about the new version of Lerouge and got a download from them.

dod_foxhunt has done very well on my community it’s the high ranked and longest running custom map on rotation map, would you agree and qualify to be a good map in your mind? Stats don’t lie, we run all the maps but some just don’t do well, so removed from rotation and nothing I can do about it.

http://supersports.hlstatsx.com/?mode=maps&game=dods

If other gaming community want DOD_foxhunt_source and dod_lerouge where can they get it? Are we eliminating a very important part of the community, ignoring some maps that is fun and do well but to some people is just need good enough?

Mapper don’t need the extra pressure, should allow his/her imagination just flow naturally. Does it really need to look like a real town? It’s a game that FUN factor should always be number 1st priority and the gamer will appreciate the map even more. I think one of the problem I’m experiencing is some communities expect every map released MUST be up to their standard and that is not fair.

Kurt

Some good posts here :)

Kurt, i think as you have said, its about choice. We have enough custom maps that we can choose different styles of maplists...

..some communities want the deathmatch style fragging - this is suited by certain maps which sometimes tend to be less 'realistic' or 'fun' maps, as you are referring to.

..some communities want realistic, tactics and teamwork encouraging style of play - this is suited by certain maps which tend to be more 'realistic' maps.

What comes first...the maps or the community... generally it is the maps.. which then moulds a certain community. I have seen this first hand.

So..the server admin often can determine the style of play and thus the style of map they want, which in turn leads to the type of community.

There ARE two types of community, as mentioned above. There ARE two types of mapper/maps. Both have their place, but they are not nessessarily, nor should they be, interswitchable. If i may say this..with respect.. just watch you dont call out SA's who are doing a good job..because of a difference in mapping ideals ;) We are all community here and have got the same core ideals - dods community. (come back Rosie :P)

I think mappers should be free to create which style they want. BUT.. in the same way, server admins should be free to use or not use; or like or not like as much, one type of map or the other; and not be judged badly for that. In the same way new mappers should be encouraged to keep mapping, as every person who starts mapping/skinning etc is a potential huge assett to us all.

I can generally tell the type of community on a server when i play there, even if its a stock map running at the time i play...if there is a lack of teamwork, or more than usual bad camping, and i type 'listmaps' in console, im often not surprised to see maps there which do not encourage teamwork or tactics, lending themselves more to deathmatch style.

Speaking personally, i enjoy a blast on a 'fun' style server for a map or two. But there is no way i would be a regular there. For me, i enjoy most the other style. If and when i get a server running again, i will set the scene for the players in terms of map choice.. i wont be pandering to the wishes of the general public..but rather to those that appreciate the 'deeper' style.

ps What do you think of the Valve comment quote i posted above.. :P

Hi Kurt!

Sorry, but I feel I definitely have to say something here.

I've been checking out pictures of dod_foxhunt_source, and in fact - it's just another Orange-Fight-Arena without any orange textures in it. There is:

- No WW2-Athmosphere
- Absolutely no lighting except from 255/255/255 gaylight
- Hardly any architecture and
- No ambience in it. No charme at all! NOTHING!!!

I won't doubt that it is being accepted and played, and that you can fill a server perfectly with it, and never ever would I tell people what they have to like, especially since we're all still playing a game here.

But - if the GAME reaches it's highest level of acceptance and the most success by featuring maps that erase every very feature the game is composed of - take those four I mentioned -, then something must be going HORRIBLY wrong.

I really don't know what has lead to this development, but it frightens me.

If the future of Day of Defeat composes of orange-fight-arenas, foxholes and the likes of those maps, then, at least concerning myself, high-quality-mapping for DoD:Source is nothing but cosmetic surgery on a dead patient.

Everything else you said is not false by any means, but it's wrong - please let me explain.

The most important thing about a game is the fun factor, that's true. A game is regarded "better" or at least "more fun" than another one by distinction.

Special features make a game more enjoyable than another one, maybe they hit a special nerve with a player.

Now regarding DoD, that special bit setting it high above every concurrence for me was the unique feeling delivered by the ambience, the athmosphere and the detail work the team put into maps, models and sounds.

Since the very first time I played DoD in late 2001, I felt it transported an amazingly dense world-war-2 feeling. I remember maps like DoD_Ramelle, Dog1, Schwetzingen or Heutau, that managed to set one back into those days using really simple techniques.

On the whole: what makes DoD great and special is nothing else than the feeling, the ambience and the illusion of WW2, maybe adding the fascination of a well done ww2-movie to the ability of taking part in what's happening on the screen.

So - if you substract ALL of that, every single point of it, and feel the result is MORE fun to you - e.g. prefering orange-fight-arena above DoD_Ramelle - then what is the sense of still calling the game Day of Defeat?

All you will have left is a World-War-Two-Mod for Super Mario World.

As I said before - I don't have any doubts this could be fun to many people and also become successful on the market, but geez, it's got absolutely nothing (!) to do with my good old Day of Defeat, and that's it.

You're right about the issue that some mappers get disappointed quickly after seeing that their first projects won't become played by the community since they don't reach the standards.

But hey, some extremely experienced mappers that spent months and hundreds of hours making high-end maps, sometimes working on them in groups of two or three people at the same time for more than 24 hours in a row, make the same experience, and yeah, I guess some of them get quite frustrated, too.

The point of decision for me is - either manage to find ways to make the high-quality, inventive maps server-fillers by distributing them sufficiantly, or live with the uncomfortable truth that the Day of Defeat of old - the one we loved and love - has ceased to be and been replaced by something else we might call "the pubber's choice".

Oh, and if the latter will take place - I hope you're a fan of the colour orange. :)

Cheers,

Albatros

Hi Pistoleer,

Nice find, any idea when is that post date stamped? Hopefully it’s recent so we can feel little love from them (VALVE & STEAM). Anyways I just to ensure everyone I’m not been rude or targeting anyone on the forum, never did and never will in the future. People know me will know I have always said be nice and respect all; I’m just frustrated that a perfect good DOD:S gaming community is not been kept up to date and slowly wasted and left in the dark with no news and updates.

I have been around for a long time now, made a commitment staying for long term and that hasn’t change at all.

Again thanks for the discussion and continuing support to our DOD:S community!!!

Cheers, Kurt

Albatros, what a great post. I agree entirely.
Ye have inspired me to install Hammer...

Kurt :D I know ye have mate and we dont doubt yer passion. Thats the whole point..all of us here, active on this forum, and this sub forum..by that very fact...care about our DoDS community. Yep frustrations can get out..but lets stick together {GROUP HUG} and keep moving forwards :)

ps re that quote..no.. :/ there are so many pages in the history.. i didnt search to see when that particular entry was time stamped. im guessing its old though :/ offtopic/ btw, Kurt, please dont be offended by this! but is english your 2nd language? If so, is French/German your first? Just wondering at your word order sometimes :P /offtopic

Very well said Albatros!

Hi Albatros,

Pistoleer said it too… I have nothing against any type of maps, I run all the maps and let the players decide on what they want to play. Since I have 2 little kids I have enough bright colour toys around my home already so I don’t need to look at more in DOD:S. but I’m not against admin or players want to play them.

I don’t have 1 specific type of maps, as you can see my community run league maps, fun maps, sniper maps and close combat maps… If you start reading from the beginning of my post I have been asking people here not to restrict any type of maps because you’re eliminating them from coming here. We need diversity and provide different options in game play. Otherwise we are becoming 1 dimension community…

It would be nice to see a single point of web site to get all your maps, instead I’m going to many different sites looking for the map. If we can all come together and work together then we would have better results… correct? Agree?

Cheers, Kurt

Very well said, Albatross.

So - if you substract ALL of that, every single point of it, and feel the result is MORE fun to you - e.g. prefering orange-fight-arena above DoD_Ramelle - then what is the sense of still calling the game Day of Defeat?

All you will have left is a World-War-Two-Mod for Super Mario World.

For the record, it is still possible to have a successful DODS community by running only decent quality maps. We do it, been doing it for six years (if you include our pre-DODS days running HLDM), and we're still here. As the gentleman from TheVille mentioned, though, the traffic on our game servers is way down from their peak during the 1.3 days.

I think custom mappers have done a fantastic job at keeping DODS alive and fresh. We support them by running tons of custom maps on our pub servers and running a custom map league.

An official custom map pack from Valve would help, but the best thing Valve could do is drop the cl_restrict_server_commands 1 default. With one fell swoop, they completely destroyed the best way for people to vote for upcoming maps. If people have a choice in the upcoming map, they're more likely to wait around for that 2-3 min (eons, I know) download. If it's "forced" on them by an automatic change to the next map in the mapcycle, they're less likely to stay.

Smashing punk:
insecurity(cr44 adaptation)" was this bouddha? When did the name change?
insecurity (http://www.sunlitgames.net/index.php?module=ExDownloads&func=details&fid=393) replacing bouddha, Oct 2006

Albatross:
You explained that eloquently and nailed it.
Maybe your opinion will matter more as you are a mapper.
I hope so.

Pistoleer:
There ARE two types of community, as mentioned above. There ARE two types of mapper/maps. Both have their place, but they are not nessessarily, nor should they be, interswitchable. Exactly. Expecting server admin to sabotage their communities by featuring maps that don't suit their clients is unreasonable. The success of the remaining active servers is due to the server ops catering to their niche markets.
The reality is that admins can try out new things (maps, plugins) but if the community says NO!, the admin had better take note or lose their clients.
Its a symbiotic relationship :)

Registration:
Registration on a reputable web site may take a minute, but if that website supports custom content and is part of an active DOD community this can only strengthen the DOD community as a whole. It makes DOD less of a hit-and-run entertainment and more of a passtime or hobby.

If other gaming community want DOD_foxhunt_source and dod_lerouge where can they get it?
I would imagine that servers that favour the "fun" maps and think they are the future of DOD would make them available.
Foxhunt (http://www.sunlitgames.net/index.php?module=ExDownloads&func=details&fid=30), some of the first releases and even *shock* an orange/arena map pack (http://www.sunlitgames.net/index.php?module=ExDownloads&func=details&fid=95) can be downloaded from our site but the players dont want them in the mapcycle.

Pvt. John;1039574']
For the record, it is still possible to have a successful DODS community by running only decent quality maps.

An official custom map pack from Valve would help, but the best thing Valve could do is drop the cl_restrict_server_commands 1 default. With one fell swoop, they completely destroyed the best way for people to vote for upcoming maps.

Well said John.
Hmm, have you considered using this script...? (i know John has it now so ive removed the link, anyone else wants they can PM me, or search elsewhere for it) It basically gives everyone entering the server, a motd message asking them to allow you to change their cl_restrict_server_commands setting to 0. If you word it in such a way to explain breifly why you are doing it.. it makes things easy for you, and keeps voting etc working. Is it a risk that some people may not like it and leave...yep its a possibility.

Thanks for the tip, Pistoleer. I had not seen that.

Versatile script :) But you are right, many just leave rather than read the instructions.
Right now we are using an MOTD and advert message to encourage those who want to vote to manually change clrsc to 0.
The Sentinel (COF + pistol) plugin will kick players with clrsc 1 with a message but that function is disabled on the pub servers.

:/ offtopic/ btw, Kurt, please dont be offended by this! but is english your 2nd language? If so, is French/German your first? Just wondering at your word order sometimes :P /offtopic

LOL No… Nice try. I’m Chinese Canadian from Taiwan.

Happy St. Patrick day and cheers on a green Guinness!!!

http://www.guinness.com/ca_en/

http://www.st-patricks-day.com/index.asp

Kurt

Anyone is making a green DOD:S map for St. Patrick day? We can run around and drink green beer and dance.

Kurt

lol... make it and give me ping kicker immunity and ill do a jig while drinking Guiness and spading myself. And since we are soooo off topic ( nw Kurt!) I have such an image of ye... a dancing Chinese Canadian, named Kurt, with an SS tag..drinking green guiness,from Taiwan, while making green textured maps... *boggle*
Aye, have a good St Paddys, i even get the day of work on monday :D /offtopic

Hi Albatros,

Pistoleer said it too… I have nothing against any type of maps, I run all the maps and let the players decide on what they want to play. Since I have 2 little kids I have enough bright colour toys around my home already so I don’t need to look at more in DOD:S. but I’m not against admin or players want to play them.

I don’t have 1 specific type of maps, as you can see my community run league maps, fun maps, sniper maps and close combat maps… If you start reading from the beginning of my post I have been asking people here not to restrict any type of maps because you’re eliminating them from coming here. We need diversity and provide different options in game play. Otherwise we are becoming 1 dimension community…

It would be nice to see a single point of web site to get all your maps, instead I’m going to many different sites looking for the map. If we can all come together and work together then we would have better results… correct? Agree?

Cheers, Kurt

Yep.

Absolutely correct, and I agree!

Diversity is the best thing that can happen to a game. That's why I still do hope that pubbers get back on the track of quality, even if that goes along with longer download times and not-so-instant-action.

I almost forgot to say one thing - you're one of the most dedicated folks around here. Plus: you're one of the handfull of people who both create maps and the infrastructure for running them, which can't be valuated high enough.

The last part of your posting sounds extremely promising - for releasing a map, I have to register with about 30 forums to make sure it'll be played on a few servers, and god knows I'd be happy if there was a way to centralize and organise this not-so-cool kind of diversity. :)

Cheers & keep rocking,

Albatros

Albatros;1039640']...for releasing a map, I have to register with about 30 forums to make sure it'll be played on a few servers, and god knows I'd be happy if there was a way to centralize and organise this not-so-cool kind of diversity. :)


I second that.

I'd be very happy to setup a site and ftp for key people to host their maps on.

Trypants has recently recieved a "bandwidth" sponsor and we can host an official map site and give ftp to the people that need it so you have a centralized place to host maps and distribute packs from.

It wouldn't be "trypants" we'd have you come up with some official name if you like.

Another point gents and Rosie… Again I’m not directing it to any of you OK. Just in general discussion.

I know most of us here will be around and survive, but think out side of your community, how many pub server can survive? If no players playing on their server then it’s time to shut it down. Correct? Agree?

Now the Question is how do you bring players into their server?

We have over 1300+ servers online, if ½ of them are decommissioned/shut down. What would VALVE/Steam think? What would be the driving force for them to upgrade and improve DOD:S?

I have no idea when VALVE will release another stock map, but we can keep it alive if we agree to stay and work together.

Therefore we need to open diversity, sharing resources, better communication, networking with clan leaders/admin and stop racial profiling custom maps.

Thanks, Kurt

OMG !!
Co-operation between clan and pub.
They said it couldnt be done ;)
Generous offer Bennett

....we need to open diversity, sharing resources, better communication, networking with clan leaders/admin and stop racial profiling custom maps.
I just want to let everyone know that I have nothing against Chinese-Canadian mappers or maps. :D

OK i was digging through my dod folder and decided to see how big it was, to my suprise it was 5 GB and most of that came from custommaps, the map folder weighs in at 4GB, so if a map pack is made please make sure the maps are final and keep variants to a minimal.

I love stug but who know how many versions came out, it seems that i had 4 versions on my hdd. This is also a problem with many other maps. Thats around 100 MB dedicated to a single map.

Another problem that i see is servers running outdated versions of maps. This leads to confusion, see i didn't even know that bouddha had turned into insecurity, and a lot of servers are still running bouddha for the very same reason.and then there's coire, who know how many of those there are.

One other thing that i don't understand is why variants are made of the same map. I understand betas, but i don't understand variants. To me it seems more reasonable to design a map as a single style of play and focus on getting it right rather than making all multiple game types on it.(ctf, detonation, tank, cal,etc.)

Hey Smashing
Another problem that i see is servers running outdated versions of maps. This leads to confusion, see i didn't even know that bouddha had turned into insecurity, and a lot of servers are still running bouddha for the very same reason.and then there's coire, who know how many of those there are.
It can be a problem but we've kept the download archive current with respect to the beta versus final issue.

One other thing that i don't understand is why variants are made of the same map. I understand betas, but i don't understand variants. To me it seems more reasonable to design a map as a single style of play and focus on getting it right rather than making all multiple game types on it.(ctf, detonation, tank, cal,etc.)
Im not a mapper but it must take a lot less work to modify a map from ctf to det or day to night than to create a whole new map.
Variety with an efficient use of time and effort.

Map variations with distinct styles of play (det vs CTF) and league mandatory versions are also listed.
For example:
anvil <3, cal_anvil2
coire_det, cal_coire (ctf)
daybreak_b3(det), twilight_rc1 (ctf)
dust (faithful 100MB CSS port), dust_sl (DODS textures, 7MB)
flashatnight, flash_tank
fuel_b3 (det) , fuel_CTF_b2
insecurity, insecurity_det
risk_b7 (autos), risk_b9 (much larger for rifles)
smallhill (night autumn), smallhill_snowday ( day, winter and more cover)
solitude_match, solitude_midnight (night)
stug_det, stug_rc1
tiger, tiger_detonation
tunisia_rc1 (det, dusk) , tunisisa_CtF_rc1 (day and ctf):

Its a bit of work to keep the archives updated, but the hope is that it will help those interested in running custom content on public servers or teams looking for new maps suitable for matches.

Right now there are 122 maps listed.
Map Gallery and Downloads (http://www.sunlitgames.net/index.php?module=ExDownloads&cid=2)
Hope this helps.

I love stug but who know how many versions came out, it seems that i had 4 versions on my hdd.


You may know this already, but in case you don't, the latest flag version is dod_stug_rc1

http://www.sunlitgames.net/index.php?module=ExDownloads&func=details&fid=67

I haven't tried the det version, but it's also rc1.

EDIT:
Ooops, didn't see that it was already in your list Rosie, oh well...I gave the direct link to it. :D