I recently saw some releases of weapons with phong, and I personally wasnt that impressed by it.
Most of them I saw at fpsbanana I think and from the small screenshots it looked very sweet, but when I looked at the original size resolution it showed "more"/to much normalmap details.

Because it uses phong, the "bumps" from the normalmap are much more visible, and I think it makes it look worse.

When used on world models I think it would look _better_ though.

Some examples,

First person view:
http://www.fpsbanana.com/screens?img=http://image.fpsbanana.com/ss/skins/19562.jpg

World model view:
http://www.fpsbanana.com/screens?img=http://image.fpsbanana.com/ss/srends/17072.jpg

The first person model well, just doesn't look "real".
Take a look at the "damage" (normalmap "bumps"), I just think it's quite ugly.

The world model looks better, but the one on the left well, is it a toy?


I think most people just put some phong code in the config file and voila, another skin done.
It's like if you use normalmaps the model looks much better, realistic, and whatever, but if you study it a bit better, it doesn't..at least that's what I think.

Ok, weapons aren't always that smooth but some "bumps" are just far from realistic.

Remember this is my opinion, and I just like to know what everybody think about this "phong" feature and how it's used.

Try to use more transparency and less stronger normalmaps, or try mixing it.
It never hurts to work "outside the box", that's how I learned a lot ;)

Sometimes I hate being that perfectionistic ;)

Originally posted by BERSERK3R
Sometimes I hate being that perfectionistic ;) LOL

Don't hate it. How do you think I create my skins? How Insane_DOD found out all those tweaks for the HUD? How Doc_Orange manages to make crappy movie sound bites into beautiful crisp and clear sound effects? how Ultranew_b, Fazzdad, (okay this list is just too long) and many other mappers optimize these huge maps and discover ways to do things (like advancing spawns) that were never in the program to begin with?

It's because all of use are obsessive perfectionists

And in my little experience with phong shaders so far, I have discovered that it is completely different from any other type of skinning, so the learning curve is steep at first. Biggest thing I have found out - what works for one weapon does not always work for others. Each one is a separate process of trial and error. Mass producing them using the same variables and technique everytime usually ends up not working.

And for the record, this one is even more precious :)
http://www.fpsbanana.com/screens?img=http://image.fpsbanana.com/ss/skins/19342.jpg

Yeah people over do it with the normal map height/contrast and alpha scale, most of them use the nvidia normal map plugin for PS and even on 1 level height it is too much which is why i use a level color overlay set to 50% transparency which makes it an effective 1.5 height on the normal

Originally posted by Wile E Coyote
LOL

Don't hate it. How do you think I create my skins? How Insane_DOD found out all those tweaks for the HUD? How Doc_Orange manages to make crappy movie sound bites into beautiful crisp and clear sound effects? how Ultranew_b, Fazzdad, (okay this list is just too long) and many other mappers optimize these huge maps and discover ways to do things (like advancing spawns) that were never in the program to begin with?

It's because all of use are obsessive perfectionists

[b]
Well I was saying that because, I get the idea that I'm a bit to precise in the way how fast I don't like something because of a "minor" detail.
But it's good to hear that I'm not alone, who seem to be just like me ;)
And I said, SOMETIMES and I must say I am really proud of the gloves I made and that could only be done by my perfectionism ;)

[...]what works for one weapon does not always work for others. Each one is a separate process of trial and error. Mass producing them using the same variables and technique everytime usually ends up not working.


And for the record, this one is even more precious :)
http://www.fpsbanana.com/screens?img=http://image.fpsbanana.com/ss/skins/19342.jpg

Not sure how you meant this?
You like this?
First I must say I didn't used the grenade ingame, but the shinyness seems a bit to much though and to much on one spot.
But the bumpmap seems to be modified quite nicely though!

aaahhh, it means I think it is absolutely horrible. Grenades are painted with matte paint to reduce reflectivity. I have held them in my hands, thrown them, etc. Grenades are not terribly shiny at all. Even the fuse is some sort of zinc alloy which is absolutely non-reflective. A tiny bit of phong shader would be okay. This looks like it was dunked in wax and polished.

I really don't think it makes things look better, normal maps can do the same thing without making everything look like its been laminated. Another problem I have with it is if the map isn't totally covered or there is a thin part of the model, it becomes a bright white line on the skin that just completely ruins it.

My personal issue is people dont "make" normal maps. It's not derived from geometry, it's just the main texture greyscaled and pushed through the nvidia filter. To be honest, if you do have to make a bumpmap-to-normal conversion learn to do it properly in a 3D app like Max.

Anyway...

The other big problem is people just plain don't understand how phong works. They over do it and everything looks like a scratched poolball. It seems as if they have an adversion to subtlety and if the highlights aren't glaring out at them then it's not good.

The whole "bad phong" epidemic was what drove me to actually write up the Wiki article on Phong (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Phong) in Source and how it works in the hope people woudl actually produce something better if they know how all the elements come together.

Originally posted by Trp. Jed
My personal issue is people dont "make" normal maps. It's not derived from geometry, it's just the main texture greyscaled and pushed through the nvidia filter. To be honest, if you do have to make a bumpmap-to-normal conversion learn to do it properly in a 3D app like Max.[...]
Yep, thats what exactly what I meant ;)
That's what I'm working on to make my own normalmaps, and messing around with it for quite some time though, cause even then I knew it just didn't work when using the generated normalmap.

I've got to say, those phong-ified MG42 world models look great in my opinion. The view model one is too bright, but it has the basics.

Phong doesn't make sense in a WW2 game in the first place to be honest. It was my understanding that soldiers made it a point not to have anything on them that is shiny or reflects light. Especially in night conditions.

Graphically it looks cool but I think it looks best when used very subtle. If its noticeable and it's the first thing you look at when you see a screenshot it's probably way over done.

Well, if dod were in any way shape or form an authentic, realism based ww2 game i would see the validity in your statement but we are talking about an arcade shooter with a ww2 theme, so unrealistic gleam on weapons and such as long as it is visually pleasing is a welcome addition and just adds that extra coolness to the visuals

Originally posted by MeleeMe!
Phong doesn't make sense in a WW2 game in the first place to be honest. It was my understanding that soldiers made it a point not to have anything on them that is shiny or reflects light. Especially in night conditions.

Graphically it looks cool but I think it looks best when used very subtle. If its noticeable and it's the first thing you look at when you see a screenshot it's probably way over done.
I agree with you.
Because it can be used doesn't mean you have to and sometimes I even prefer non shader skins.

For example when comparing DOOM3 some other games which use phong and normalmaps, HL2 for example just looks much and much better.

It uses normalmaps and reflections, but not as much as DOOM3 for example.

You don't always need to put phong, normalmaps, reflections in a game.
Although everything shines and reflects in some way but it's just to hard to make it as real as possible, and therefore making it look to shiny, and look like it's made of plastic.

I think it's possible to achieve a more realistic effect with phong or reflections, but it's the basic lighting in the game that makes it hard.

For example if I want a weapon to shine with phong, I can get close to what I like but I feel the lighting which makes it all shine isn't as "global" like it should be.
I think that the game doesn't render light from where the sun doesn't shine.
In a way it's true but there is always some light behind it, if you know what I mean....

phong looks good on everything, and i never not notice these are player models i'm looking at...so the whole "plastic" look doesn't bother me