I saw in Fuzzdad's thread for Flugplatz that Hulk Bogan thanked FD for making that map "Bot Friendly"... This got me thinking... I've been messing around with waypointing lately, and have noticed that maps seem to be made with the "human" element in mind... While the bots can pull off some tricky operations with a little fancy waypointing they are nowhere near as innovative as the people that play... I'd like to remind mappers that not everyone has broadband connections, and many people prefer to play with the bots instead of online... I would just like to suggest that mappers keep this in mind when designing their maps... Here's a list of some of the things I could think of that would make botplay more enjoyable without detracting from map design radically...


* DOORS ... In general ...
Just because you have a doorway doesn't always mean you need to have a door.... Bots CAN operate doors somewhat effectively, but sometimes get confused if they don't hit it just right...

Leave enough room on either side of a door to open fully, and still be able to walk by it... Bots are infamous for trapping themselves behind them or even in them... I'm sure you've all heard that damn door noise loop endlessly because a bot got stuck...

* NO DOORS IN SPAWN AREAS ...
10 or more bots all rushing for the same door at the same time causes one hell of a traffic jam... They aren't as polite as you or me, and have a hard time taking turns...

* NO INTRICATE SPAWN EXITS ...
If you absolutely must add a door to your spawn area then at least make it easily accessable so the bots don't jam up in a bottleneck of twists and jumps just to get out...

* MAKE MAIN ROUTES WIDE ENOUGH ...
You don't have to get crazy with this... I'm just asking that if a certain path is considered a main route to a flag or objective that you make it wide enough to pass by someone without getting hung up on them... The bots sometimes forget where they were going, and turn around in narrow passages creating a blockage...

Also.. If it is a main route then don't put elaborate obsticles in the way... Bots are determined to get where they are going if it's the shortest path.. This means that if they get hung up on obsticles they will most likely stand there staring at the objective in groups wishing they could get there instead of finding another way around... Remember.. if You have difficulty navigating a certain spot then the Bots will DEFINITELY run into a problem too...

* USE MORE INVISIBLE COLLISION HULLS ...
I think that's what they are called... You know... the invisible brushes that help stop you from getting hung up on edges or corners... I can't stress this enough... Bots don't follow waypoints perfectly... They track them loosely so as not to be so "herky jerky" ... This causes them to sometimes cut corners short or make "farmer turns"... While the right waypointing will help to prevent this it doesn't eliminate it... If a human player can get stuck on a small brush edge then you can be certain that the Bots will hunt that spot down and cause major congestion... LOL..

Bots are excellent at jumping down to their next waypoint... However, when it comes to jumping up it's a different story... Another important place to use invisible brushes would be at these points... A small invisible brush at that spot will let the bots walk smoothly over the edge and prevent hang ups... It is possible to make waypoints telling the bots to jump at that spot, but even the most skilled bot doesn't always make the jump correctly.. Especially if he's under fire... He would be so happy if he could just run over the edge to get out of harm's way instead of jumping around in circles acting like a target.... Either that, or make the height of the gap less...



Well that's all I could think of off the top of my head... I'll add more thoughts as I encounter them... If you have any suggestions then feel free to add them here as well... If just some of these suggestions are taken into consideration by mappers when designing layouts it would make a world of difference when waypointing, and the bots would love you...


...

some good points, a good guide...will follow these now when i map :)

U have a point but i say stuff the bots, i have a 56k and i play fine, bots is ok for a while but they get too predictable... if mappers thought of the bots then maps would get too simple, with bots u will never get better in the the game, bots are for noobs, mappers shouldnt have bots to stop them doing what they want. but there are proberly mappers who are willing to make bot friendly maps. good luck. :)

Originally posted by TheNomad
U have a point but i say stuff the bots, i have a 56k and i play fine, bots is ok for a while but they get too predictable... if mappers thought of the bots then maps would get too simple, with bots u will never get better in the the game, bots are for noobs, mappers shouldnt have bots to stop them doing what they want. but there are proberly mappers who are willing to make bot friendly maps. good luck. :)

Wrong.

Mappers could do some very simple things to avoid bot problems...without dumbing down their maps. Why must everyone take everything to an extreme? Honestly folks...there is quite a lot of room for a happy medium.

For example...

From the map dod_flash2_b1, the killer door served no purpose at all. Remember the half-door that killed you if you walked into it "just right"? That just never had a place in the map...and was probably a bug...but it made life hell for waypointers. Bots would almost always die trying to simply open a door and walk into a house.

From the current version of dod_anzio, the Axis spawn double-door exit is so tight...you couldn't pull a needle out of it with a garden tractor. Why? It serves no real strategic purpose...but yet...it's there...making things difficult on bots. There are alternate exits, but bots seem to hang up trying to leave their spawn. This easily could be avoided by making the doorway opening at least as wide as two soldiers.

There are many things that can be done to make a bot friendly map without otherwise affecting practical gameplay. We can deal with difficult obstacles and the like with better waypointing. In fact, to a degree, better waypointing cures the "predictability" factor of the bots (long story, off-topic).

Would anyone here consider dod_fabrik a noob-oriented map? I never would. It features some really intense combat. It's almost a perfect "bot-friendly" map. As I stated already, dod_flugplatz is darned near perfect for bots as well. Other examples of top "bot-friendly" maps? Try these on for size...most people would agree they're some of the best ever created. Coincidence? I think not.

dod_parish, dod_noia, dod_fabrik, dod_fabrik2_b1, dod_oslo, dod_koln, dod_kraftstoff, dod_revolted, dod_stadtpark, etc., etc.

My point being...if you associate bot-friendly with maps being too simplified...you simply haven't been around much or don't truly understand what bot-friendly means. I've listed quite a few really strong maps here...all of them are great bot environments and all of them have been some really popular offerings...even among those afraid of the term "bot friendly".

Later,

I feel for people that are the 56killers but I map for people to play in, not bots. Just my opinion.

-Plato

The other thing not mentioned (perhaps implied) here is that some of us welcome bots because we can playtest our maps for hours and hours with basically two evenly matched teams and find out if we have balance or other tactical and strategic problems. It's true that Bots are not entirely human-like but if you have both teams equal...and waypoints are built correctly...you can really stress-test a map. After several hours of playing on my new map (flugplatz) the Axis bots seemed to have an advantage...so i increased their respawn time in small increments until the map balanced out.

It's also clearly true that by supporting sturmbots you support the overall DoD community...which is a cool thing to do.

yep...

what he said...

in fact...AMEN...

I do think bots are great for testing our maps but also think that some of DoD players prefer playing with bots (don't ask me why!!!) I know some that only play with bots...
When you play on LAN and are not numerous enough bots are welcome to balance teams... so as a beginner mapper I'll try to pay more attention to this point in the future...

I didnt think of that.

hmmm

I take back most of what I said earlier.

n1, u have convinced me :)

I can't wait for a bundle of confusion with your name, Nomad.

Originally posted by Effexx
*NO DOORS IN SPAWN AREAS ...
10 or more bots all rushing for the same door at the same time causes one hell of a traffic jam... They aren't as polite as you or me, and have a hard time taking turns...

You can always use "wait" waypoints so the bots wait for the next waypoint to be empty before they move forward


* USE MORE INVISIBLE COLLISION HULLS ...
Bots are excellent at jumping down to their next waypoint... However, when it comes to jumping up it's a different story... Another important place to use invisible brushes would be at these points... A small invisible brush at that spot will let the bots walk smoothly over the edge and prevent hang ups... It is possible to make waypoints telling the bots to jump at that spot, but even the most skilled bot doesn't always make the jump correctly.. Especially if he's under fire... He would be so happy if he could just run over the edge to get out of harm's way instead of jumping around in circles acting like a target.... Either that, or make the height of the gap less...

Precision waypointing helps... most of the time at least

Originally posted by kl33r
You can always use "wait" waypoints so the bots wait for the next waypoint to be empty before they move forward


Good point.. I didn't think of that... Thanks...

However, if you ever watch the whole bot team head for the only door in the spawn then you'll see them pile up if the first bot doesn't quite make the door perfectly... The second bot in line will just pin the first one in place, and so on and so forth all the way to the back of the line... I would tend to think that the WAIT waypoint wouldn't do much to stop this...

The bots really don't seem to have problems with suck things if they are respawning 1 or 2 at a time... It's usually when the map starts or resets, and the whole team is there trying to get out at the same time... Hence, it would just be easier to leave out the spawn doors all together...


...

However, if you ever watch the whole bot team head for the only door in the spawn then you'll see them pile up if the first bot doesn't quite make the door perfectly... The second bot in line will just pin the first one in place, and so on and so forth all the way to the back of the line... I would tend to think that the WAIT waypoint wouldn't do much to stop this...



The allies spawn, front door particularly, for hill_classic is a prime example up un-botfriendly mapping. Even with lotsa wait and precision points i'm having a cast iron beeatch of a time getting em out the front without clogging.