Hi all,
I was unsure whether to post this in the Art, General, or MSA forum. You guys won, congrats. :) Okay, moving on...

I've seen quite a bit of fuss about whether or not there should appear Nazi Swastikas within DoD. Naturally, this is up to the individual mappers, modellers and of course players, but the dev team has something to say in this, and they do.

Here is a short quote from this letter (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/letter_display.php?letter_id=216) from Tim Holt (aka. Waldo :D), dated 02.21.2002:

I don't want to make light of the Anti-Defamation League, but the news item you ran about the ADL's report on racist video games pains me. I went to the ADL's web site and read their report, which also mentions our game, Day of Defeat, in the following quote:

Another popular online game, Day of Defeat, is described by The New York Times as having "battlefields decorated with swastikas and Nazi posters," and "in some games, a battle is signaled with a rousing call to arms broadcast in German."

We, the DOD team, are working hard to remove various "Nazi" aspects of the game, trying to make it more pure to the warfare reality and not the politics of the era, yet people post stuff like that! All that work to get mappers to tone down the "Nazi stuff". All the people who read the ADL site will are going to assume we're some kind of neo-Nazi training simulator.


So, my suggestion is to use something like a meta-swastika, something we all know what is, but is less offensive. One quite obvious alternative is the "Double Cross" that Charlie Chaplin used in "The Great Dictator" (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0032553) when he posed as "Adenoid Hynkel". Humorous, effective, and harmless. No? ;)

I've included a sample close-up of the Double Cross (attachment).

Any thoughts?

Err, where did that attachment go? I'll try again:

Unfortunately, in this time and era people have forgotten that the Nazi swastika was originally a political sign that meant, 'unbeatable,' it didn't mean the destruction of the Jewish people as most like to think. The Day of Defeat team just wants to avoid confrontation with certain rights groups and other people, those of us who like history will grit our teeth and then ask for the swastikas in custom things.

One thing I found quite funny... "in some games, a battle is signaled with a rousing call to arms broadcast in German." I thought this would be a bit of defamation in itself. The German says basically the same thing as the American in the game, but because it's in German they attack it and it's all of a sudden evil.

Oh well.

Originally posted by Hallock
Unfortunately, in this time and era people have forgotten that the Nazi swastika was originally a political sign that meant, 'unbeatable,' it didn't mean the destruction of the Jewish people as most like to think. The Day of Defeat team just wants to avoid confrontation with certain rights groups and other people, those of us who like history will grit our teeth and then ask for the swastikas in custom things.

One thing I found quite funny... "in some games, a battle is signaled with a rousing call to arms broadcast in German." I thought this would be a bit of defamation in itself. The German says basically the same thing as the American in the game, but because it's in German they attack it and it's all of a sudden evil.

Oh well.

LOL really. Its giving sublimanal messages to kids telling them to kill ;)

Originally posted by Plaskon 78
Do not try to make our editing fun into your political battle.

Get lost.

dido

the swastika was originally a symbol of peac till they tilted it 45 degrees.

Guys, he wasn't saying you couldn't make Swastikas, he was asking for alternatives if we never could. Also, Miller, they flipped the sign horizontally to make the swastika.

Whatever man, thats what the editing forum is for.

Yeah, it was originally a buddist symbol i think, which they mirrored and tilted (I might be wrong though, i often am lol)

Anyway, I think this is a pretty good idea. Mainly because I'm a pretty big Charlie Chaplin fan anyway lol

Ska

It was a good luck sign until...well...you know.

Originally posted by KlaymenDK
Err, where did that attachment go? I'll try again:
omg, that is the funniest picture EVAH

http://www.falundafa.org.il/ver_01/english/wan_eng.htm

@Plaskon:
Hey take it easy there :) I wasn't intending to stir up any politic arguments. I was merely suggesting this, because games with nazi symbolism are frowned upon in some coutries (or so I hear).

About the origin of the symbol ... the original symbol is described on this page (http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa120699a.htm):
The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

So, let me just wrap this up by saying this:
If you are thinking about, or have made some graphics/models/maps with swastikas, consider replacing the symbol with Chaplin's humourous equivalent (or make an additional release as an alternative). For the initiated it'd make a nice trivia, and for the uninitiated, well it just wouldn't have the same potential for cultural offense.

I just wanted to say that for some time. Use it as you wish.

Cheers. :)

*edit* PS (Sclass12) ... You might want to see the movie "The Great Dictator", it is rather good. And, you should also read up on the making of it, because Chaplin changed it a great deal as it dawned upon him just what (who) it was he was making fun of. The ending in particular is noticeably different than from the original script.

I just feel that replacing the swastika with a double cross has no purpose. The reason for adding the swastika in the first place is purely for creating a world war 2 atmosphere. Replacing it with a double cross just seems like a bad idea. If you're after some sort of parodic version of dod with lots of funny content, OK. But as a serious replacement, it ruins the whole feel of the game.

Here's an interesting image I saved for just such a discussion, the swastica, often called a sunwheel, was used in many cultures, and often meant different things, power, peace, prosperity, etc. Hitler used it for the same reasons.

Originally posted by Pinhead
http://www.falundafa.org.il/ver_01/english/wan_eng.htm

This should answer any swastika questions. The swastika did of course mean nothing negative in the past. But like so many things, abuse perverts its image.

Like a skimask, i can't say i've ever seen anyone wear a skimask. I bet its a very comfortable piece of clothing when it's cold outside, but who can look at a skimask without thinking of bank robbers and similar criminal activity?

Originally posted by Hallock


One thing I found quite funny... "in some games, a battle is signaled with a rousing call to arms broadcast in German." I thought this would be a bit of defamation in itself. The German says basically the same thing as the American in the game, but because it's in German they attack it and it's all of a sudden evil.

Oh well.

I found that offensive. I'm German, will they attack me for playing DoD? Does being German make someone a nazi? Does the language make someone who speaks it a nazi? No. It does not, and I hope that whoever wrote that on the "ADL" website changes it.

i think its utterly ridiculous that swasticas would be taken out of ANY WW2 game. it was apart of german history, these people trying to get rid of it need to back off. removing it lessens that feel you get with a WW2 game. i mean get a load of RTCW. if they wanna talk 'evil nazis' why dont they go pick at that game. they make it out to seem WW2 games like DOD in its early betas for EX. are wrong, and bad.

gimmie a break!

Yeah, i dont kn ow why they remove swatikas from the game. people say its offensive to people. Well it happened in real life, its just a game. If you are offnded by it, DONT PLAY IT. I mean, i want a realistic looking game, the only mods I get are realistic ones. Look at RTCW, they have all that blood and gore, but no swastikas. Im not a nazi or anything, i just want realism

my dod is full of swastikas not cause iam racialist but the era of the game without would not be right plus theres only me plays my version everyones dod is different in some way

Lol...what kind of crap is the ADL showing? Oh no...the game has some german in it. (*Gasp*, its hitler's reincarnate game!)

I think the swastika should be kept in dod. Its only a WWII game damnit. if the people out there who find the swastika offensive then they shouldnt even play WWII games. OR they could play as the allies and kick some nazi @ss

Im no neo nazi, but i love seeing the swastika, all that German stuff facinates me, and when I see a swastika, it jsut reek of nostalgia for me.

I think those paranoid people need to realize it's just a game, and most of the people who are big time players are hsitory buffs, who probably know more about ww2 than that damn ADL. I could understand if there were concetration camps being made, or even "destroy the jews" posters or other items such as that, but I think people just need to put things into perspective.

Who cares what the leftist media thinks, nothing new here...

They are in the buisiness of perpetuating "victim" groups, because victimization pays.

Originally posted by Sclass12
Look at RTCW, they have all that blood and gore, but no swastikas. Im not a nazi or anything, i just want realism

actually RTCW has loads of swasticas, everywhere. and i mean everywhere. not only that, the game was just demonic in a sense that there was zombies and all sorts of evil stuff goin on (wich is cool, every game has its share of evil :))

i mean they instantly think that because a game has germans talking, and swasticas in it, that the game is automatically, traumatising and infecting my little mind with bad thoughts.

gimmie a ****ing break.

germans speak german. swastics were used by ther germans in WW2. the people trying to get rid of this stuff should be fired.
i mean, who wants to play a WW2 game where the germans speak english?

"That" German stuff is not German stuff. That is Nazi stuff. The soldiers in DOD belong to the Wehrmacht - The German army. I will say this again, they have no affiliation with the National Socialist POLITICAL party. Day of Defeat is about WWII warfare, not 1940 politics. To think it's "cool" or "fascinating" to see a Swastika in place of German flags (which is what should be there) is ignorant.

It is not just a game with Swastikas. This is very important and I would wish most of you could understand this.

Do you know what that Swastika means if it's used for this era? When you use that swastika; when you see that swastika, I want you to just think of what it respresents.

That swastika represents murder, death, innocent people being kicked out of their homes so SS officers can live in them, people starving, people being sent in cattle cars in the hot summer with no water, or in the icy winter with no food, or going to the bathroom where they stand and living in it, or being gassed, burned, shot, forced to bury thousands of dead bodies, hiding in latrines to escape death, children being taken away from their mother's arms, or baby's being throwing against walls while German shephards tear their mother's apart before she is shot in the head. People being killed for one reason: They are Jewish. It's impossible to list all of the horrors that that Swastika respresents. Using a swastika that you think is "kewl" in a computer game is not only incomprehensibly disrespectful to the millions of people that were murdered because of it, but it's disrespectful to the German soldiers that you think it was affiliated with.

The German Armed Forces, the battle flag did have a Swastika in the middle, while the Imperial Cross was in the top right corner.

The German Army had nothing to do with Politics.

Originally posted by Ska_Wars
Yeah, it was originally a buddist symbol i think, which they mirrored and tilted (I might be wrong though, i often am lol)

Anyway, I think this is a pretty good idea. Mainly because I'm a pretty big Charlie Chaplin fan anyway lol

Ska


Native American symbol I think.

Pinhead I read your link and it was TRUELY fascinating, that was an axcelent read, thanks for posting it :)

If the swastika symbol is to be banned from all media, then whatever happened to freedom of expression? Ban the swastika and far right organisations will adopt another flag to represent their xenophobic, distateful beliefs: just look at how the British National Party have *******ised the Union Jack and made it a distateful symbol of far right politics and hooliganism.

Surely these far right politicians and organisations (such as the BNP in the UK, various Arian organisations such as the KKK in the US - who are legally allowed to carry real guns...) are more influential than a flag in a computer game.

If the ADL want something to do (as they clearly do) then they should really go after the big fish before taking cheap shots at everyones third favourite scape-goat (after "rock" music and "horror" videos) - computer games.

Gah - I could rant away all day... Just remember Voltaire:

'I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,'

EDIT: Sorry - just realised I didn't comment on the actual subject of the thread.

I don't mind if they remove all swastikas from the game - flags, posters, etc... but I don't see why they should.

I have no problems with seeing a swastica on pictures or in games, but I would hate fighting with this symbol on my uniform. It feels just strange to "wear" a symbol for murder, tyranny and dictatorship even if it's "just a game". For me it's impossible to forget what it stands for in the history of my country. So IMHO the way the DoD team chose is the best one to satisfy the biggest group and not expose DoD to official critizism in the media.

Those crosses on Chaplin's uniform are IMHO quite stupid. What should this add to the "realism" people want by adding swasticas to their game?

The fact is that it is not right. Unless Day of Defeat has Gestapo and politicians running around fighting in future releases, the swastika does not belong. And not only that, it's not right to think it looks cool in the game. That swastika is not cool, whether you want freedom of expression or not.

People died, thats right, gave their lives making sure you would have freedom of expression, and you would never have to see that swastika again, and look what you disrespectful kids go and do...you make "kewl" mods forcing the National Socialist Party's flag in place of German Army symbols ignorantly because you think it's "fascinating" or you "dont have a problem with it." You might as well spit on the graves of those who fought against that swastika. You obviously have no idea what happened because of the Nazi party.

Originally posted by nOisetank
The fact is that it is not right. Unless Day of Defeat has Gestapo and politicians running around fighting in future releases, the swastika does not belong. And not only that, it's not right to think it looks cool in the game. That swastika is not cool, whether you want freedom of expression or not.

People died, thats right, gave their lives making sure you would have freedom of expression, and you would never have to see that swastika again, and look what you disrespectful kids go and do...you make "kewl" mods forcing the National Socialist Party's flag in place of German Army symbols ignorantly.

Swastikas don't kill people. People kill people

People fighting for Swastikas kill people. A lot of them.

Personally, I don't need the swastika in dod. It gives atmosphere, but is nothing I would complain about if disappeared. Not because I think that it is a symbol of the nazis plans of genocide.

http://8ball.ofb.net/biohazard.gif
This is also an evil icon that should not appear in games or movies. What is stands for has killed so many people through time out of pure evil and hatred. Please remove this icon, it is evil.

The swastika may have been the Nazi party symbol, but it also became the national flag of Germany from 1939 to 1945. To alter the national battle flag of Germany in that era and replace the swastika with a WWI-era Iron Cross is, I believe, a form of revisionist history.

I had a long talk not too long ago with a Vietnam veteran, and asked him what he thought about war games like Day of Defeat (and the Vietnam mod Tour of Duty). He said that while he didn't play the games himself - as he lived the horrors - he was all for them, for it was a way of keeping history alive, like historical reinactments. He said that if we forget what happened, the next thing will be that people will come along and say it never happened.

As repulsive as the swastika may be to some people, I think we need to leave it in (1) to be historically accurate and (2) lest we ever forget it.

^
very good post batman thats true.

and noise tank, the swastica did not stand for killing... do you know what the true meaning of the swastica is? its a good luck syombol, and has other meanings like someone else mentioned "unbeatable". wich are perfect reasons why hitler would have used it as the national symbol of Germany and as well the polotics and army.

im not syaing that its cool that millions of people died because of hitlers fascist ideals, or the fact that because of the SS units, millions of jews were murdered. im not sayin that at all, what i am saying is that the swastica was an important part of german history, and removing it would do no justice to WW2 games.

The killing that went on was a result of what hitler had planned for many many years. his 'final solution' as you may recall. now after WW1, germany was in such a rut, with debt and with the depression that they had no where to turn. when hitler stepped in, he was that ray of hope, the people thought everything about him was good, right down to the very swastica he represented. wich like i said represented 'good luck' and 'unbeatable' wich are the two things germany needed the most. good luck and an 'unbeatable' army.

in the general sense the swastica is not a symbol for death, although i can see why you would think it was. most people today wouldent think twice that the swastica was a 'good luck' symbol, because it was used by one of the most evil men in history; therefore, it is looked at as evil, and racist. the true meaning of the swastica was tarnished. and i doubt anyone would use it today to represent good luck today. removing it from WW2 games would be historically innacurate. (wich im sure most developers like to keep to a point)

Its stupid to say that the swastika gives "atmosphere" to this game. If you say that, i can't see an especially large distance between that and you grabbing a gun, going postal. If you need a nazi symbol to play this game properly, you're twisted. The swastica doesnt have **** to do with this game. As i see this game, these are FIGHTING soldiers, not POLITICIANS. These guys struggle for their lives, apart from capturing flags and blowing up bunkers, but i see that as fighting, rather than trying to influence someone with a horrible symbol which stands for all **** that germany did those years of the second world war. Remove the swastica and replace it with the iron cross. Perios. swasticas haven't got **** to do with this game, and DONT YOU ****ING TELL ME THAT ITS A HARMLESS SYMBOL! If you put that symbol in this game, it means that those soldiers are fighting for antisemitism, not for their lives. It means that they fight for opression of anyone thinking otherwise, not for their lives. If you put the swastica into Day of Defeat, you are using that symbol the EXACT way the germans were using it in WWII. The swastica has its uses in other places, but not in DoD.


Just don't

this is bad u could always play allies if u are against the swastica:P some people need to chill its just a game but knowing people that read that artical someones gonna try to get games banned now :/

Originally posted by Roland
but i see that as fighting, rather than trying to influence someone with a horrible symbol which stands for all **** that germany did those years of the second world war.

...

If you put the swastica into Day of Defeat, you are using that symbol the EXACT way the germans were using it in WWII.

so are you saying that because there is a swastica in a game, that its going to influence me to go kill jews and start preaching an believing in antisemitism and racism? and that because i favor realism over what some stupid critics have to say that im gonna go grab a gun and go postal on someone?

Please... its not like its sending me subliminal messages to go "kill kill kill"

lol that movie with charlie chaplin was funny when he imitates hitler:D
what is the name of it again i saw it when i was 9

Originally posted by Roland
Its stupid to say that the swastika gives "atmosphere" to this game. If you say that, i can't see an especially large distance between that and you grabbing a gun, going postal.
You scare me...

Dont remove the swastika, i was downloading some swastika pack to get the swastika back on some maps!

Originally posted by nOisetank
People fighting for Swastikas kill people. A lot of them.

People that fought AGAINST the Swastikas killed people. A lot of them.

Jus because german soldiers wore a swastika it doesn't mean they were bloody nazis.

A hell of alot of German medals contained the swastika, does that mean the man awarded with it is a nazi?

And as for saying nazi symbols have no place on the battlefield, well im afraid on some maps they do. What i mean by that is during inner city fighting on and around D-Day many nazi propaganda posters were still up, many containing the swastika.

I dont really care wether the maps contain swastikas or not, but to just automatically dismiss the idea immediately is pretty damn stupid in my oppinion. And as for saying politics have no place on the battlefield, what are you talking about? War is politics. its what happens when politics breaks down between two countries or doesn't work. I think everyone who having a bloody strop should think about exactly what they are saying and what they are arguing about before they type anything else. This thread was put up to offer an alternative to the symbol, not start a big flame war.

Ska

I believe what nOisetank is saying is that having swastikas everywhere IS NOT historically accurate in terms of what the Whermacht carried with them as the German army [as opposed to the Nazi army]. Nor is it "cool," which I agree with.

I will use and honor the counter-clockwise "svastika," the "crux gammata," the "manji" and the "sauvastika", as they are described by Hiroaki Samura. They are symbols used, as also described I'm sure, on the page linked and quoted earlier, by the Mesopotamian people, on their coins, by both North and South America, and the Buddhists in Japan, with such symbolism as prosperity, good fortune and the Buddhist interpretation for night and magical practices.

The National Socialist Party perverted the "hakenkruz," with its clockwise-turning arms.

Being that the Whermacht was the GERMAN army, I think it appropriate that it carries primarily German symbols and flags. The only historical reason to have all the swastikas floating around would be for such conversions that have the SS running around, since they were started as a Nazi police force and yadda, yadda, yadda, or something like that. Probably not entirely solid on those details.

What Tekkobra said is also true. Parade a victim, generate loads of attention derived from sympathy. What these groups don't realize is that sympathy isn't exactly a good thing. It has you looked upon as weak, feable, ineffectual. You end up with less respect than you do exasperation if you go on and on and on for decades upon decades about the horrors that were forced on you while entirely overshadowing the fact that you were among a minority of sufferers at the time. Especially if you start delivering those same horrors on an other minority with an absolute disregard for the association being made. But anyway, that's a different discussion entirely.

People think they'll get more support for their kids from other people if they make them out to be victims of this or that while entirely ignoring the fact that THEY are their childrens' parents, not the rest of us. This, in turn, augments their childrens' victimhood and gets them more pity while reducing the amount of actual hands-on work those parents feel they have to do because everyone else is coddling them anyway. Which then further justifies the child's separation from the idea that their parents are "God" and increases their need for a replacement "God," which is where too many of them run to religion as a placebo rather than more innocent reasons [not that there are many]. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The domino effect is long and convoluted and largely unconscious to a point where people can't admit they're in it to themselves, let alone anyone else.

If you replace the swastika [where it's appropriate to have any, which isn't often], you may as well also have the Axis speak "Sim"-balese. Then again, that just justifies these activists' need to feel victimised in some way. It makes them feel important as if the world's out to get them and if so many people are so focussed on getting them, they -must- have some great reason to exist, right? So they keep existing and lamenting all the injusticies visitted upon them by the world. The best way to crush such idiocy is to ignore it altogether.

That isn't to say that ignoring it is enough. No. At least be aware of it enough to educate yourself about both sides of every argument and make your own mind. Then live by that decision and don't worry about the crazies victimizing themselves for the sake of being victims.

Since i dont see any SS or gestapo at all anywhere in DoD, i find it a stupid idea to put in a swastica in this game. Posters are one thing, patches on the ****ing arm of a german soldier is another!

Plus, i did say in my last post that if you need a nazi-swastica in this game to generate "atmosphere" to, in turn, play it properly, then yes, i do see you as a psyhically instable person which doesn't need a very powerful push to go postal with a gun in some town.

And by the way, i doubt that you would say something like that if you were jewish or if your grandparents were put into concentration camps. Being a communist, liberalist or a rebellic peasant is a whole 'nother thing than being jewish. You can instantly switch sides, from communist, to liberalist, to anarchist, though if you are a jew, you'll most probably never going to convert, since your love for your religion is too great. With myself being a christian, i know that i will never convert, meaning that i only can imagine what this suffering has caused the jews. That war has caused the jews bond tighter together because of their intensive repulsion from nazism, meaning that jews, (christians and muslims too) dont see themselves as groups of people, but rather like a separate race. (That does not sound right, but it is something like that.) Nothing you can do will stop them from feeling like that. Hence, if you commit genocide on jews, you commit genocide on a targeted group of people. Anyone can be a communist, and switch between all the politic beliefs, but jews will most probably forever be jews, as most christians will forever be christians, and most muslims will forever be muslims.
Its hard to explain, but thats just the way it is.

Originally posted by Roland
Since i dont see any SS or gestapo at all anywhere in DoD, i find it a stupid idea to put in a swastica in this game. Posters are one thing, patches on the ****ing arm of a german soldier is another!

Who said anything about having swastikas on peoples arms?

I say - don't have swastikas by default - but there's no way anyone can stop people from creating and using them if they want.

What more is there to be said?

First of all, im not a mentally unstable person. id like to be educated about what i play according to historical accuracy.

now id like you to take a good look at this: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-flags/enemy.htm

Notice how the only german flags with crosses in them were the WW1 battle flags. now, in the center is a display of all the WW2 german battle flags. notice how EVERY one of those flags has a swastica in it.

pretty much everything was decorated with a swastica during this time period. every flag had a swastica somewhere. even the Luftwaffe (http://www.authenticmilitaria.com/collections/images/LuftStandarte.jpg) used it. everything from badges (http://www.authenticmilitaria.com/collections/images/fBgeneral.jpg) to insignia (SOME insignia) had it. its not a matter of 'atmosphere' its a matter of whats SUPPOSED to be there.

if the video game developers want to take them out, thats fine. im not gonna go crazy over it.. but it aint gonna stop people from customizing it to thier liking.

I also don't like how some of the historical posters have been altered and airbrushed to be "politically correct." For instance, this poster found on dod_charlie.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mrbatman/graphics/ss_poster1.gif

Here is the real poster from WWII, which reads, "Die polizei im fronteinsatz" (which I believe translates to "The police on the front lines) and is an SS recruitment poster.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mrbatman/graphics/ss_poster2.gif

You can see how the words in the dod_charlie version have been completely changed (to "Bamse Company", which I believe is a clan tag) and the SS insignia in the upper right-hand corner has been airbrushed out.

I find this just as offensive as I find the Nazis burning books. It's all censorship and the suppression of history and truth, in order not to bruise someone's feelings.

Conscript has said what needed to be said. The Day of Defeat team has taken the necessary steps to avoid poor influence. By the way last I checked Halflife had a...............either (T or M) rating. Not that anyone really enforces that, but the fact is that there's enough censorship to apply to society's idea of "Right."

Its not their job to shield children from the obscene, it's the parents. They've gone above and beyond the call of duty. Now if someone wants to customize a sprite or a model or WHATEVER, its their buisness.

I like history. I will not kill anyone in real life if I play dod. Listening to gangster rap on the other hand -- well, I may just go on a rampage.

You've gotta be kidding me.

I remember some cartoon had their own version of the Nazis in one episode, and instead of having swastikas, they had unhappy faces. :(

Its really a historical thing.

The Germans did wear them on thier uniforms and on thier battle flags.

The Luftwaffe also adopted the Hekencruz to be put on the tails of thier planes

The only reason IT IS NOT IN DOD, is because They want to sell DoD retail overseas in Germany, and in Germany its illegal to have a game with Swastikas in it.

Originally posted by Russ. Conscript
^
very good post batman thats true.

and noise tank, the swastica did not stand for killing... do you know what the true meaning of the swastica is? its a good luck syombol, and has other meanings like someone else mentioned "unbeatable". wich are perfect reasons why hitler would have used it as the national symbol of Germany and as well the polotics and army.

im not syaing that its cool that millions of people died because of hitlers fascist ideals, or the fact that because of the SS units, millions of jews were murdered. im not sayin that at all, what i am saying is that the swastica was an important part of german history, and removing it would do no justice to WW2 games.

The killing that went on was a result of what hitler had planned for many many years. his 'final solution' as you may recall. now after WW1, germany was in such a rut, with debt and with the depression that they had no where to turn. when hitler stepped in, he was that ray of hope, the people thought everything about him was good, right down to the very swastica he represented. wich like i said represented 'good luck' and 'unbeatable' wich are the two things germany needed the most. good luck and an 'unbeatable' army.

in the general sense the swastica is not a symbol for death, although i can see why you would think it was. most people today wouldent think twice that the swastica was a 'good luck' symbol, because it was used by one of the most evil men in history; therefore, it is looked at as evil, and racist. the true meaning of the swastica was tarnished. and i doubt anyone would use it today to represent good luck today. removing it from WW2 games would be historically innacurate. (wich im sure most developers like to keep to a point)

Thank you for the history lesson of what you've learned from movies. I know the Swastika is a historical symbol used by many groups of people throughout history. But what I'm saying is that using the swastika in this time period is bad. If DOD had the Waffen SS instead of Wehrmacht, fine. I wouldnt care. I wouldn't like it, but it would be historically accurate. But I hardly think having swastikas in this game (especially when they shouldnt be in there to start with) has nothing to do with forgetting history or being historically inaccurate. I dont care if the swastika was around then, I'll say this again...THE SWASTIKA HAS NO PLACE WITH THE GERMAN WEHRMACHT IN DAY OF DEFEAT. Whether you think your historical principles or whatever are right or wrong, the swastika does not belong in Day of Defeat. End of story.

Originally posted by Ska_Wars
This thread was put up to offer an alternative to the symbol, not start a big flame war.
Thank you, Ska. ;)

Originally posted by MrBatman
As repulsive as the swastika may be to some people, I think we need to leave it in (1) to be historically accurate and (2) lest we ever forget it.
You know, I think you're quite right. No sense in going for realism if it's skewed realism, anyway.
The only two questions are, then, to what extent it actually has merit, and what people who disagree should be able do.

Originally posted by Thesoldier
The only reason [the Hakenkreuz] IS NOT IN DOD, is because They want to sell DoD retail overseas in Germany, and in Germany its illegal to have a game with Swastikas in it.
To be sure, I never asked to ban the swastika from the game, just that those who don't like it --and evidently, there are many such poeple-- should have an alternative.

Originally posted by =DD=Wolf Kahler
I believe what nOisetank is saying is that having swastikas everywhere IS NOT historically accurate in terms of what the Whermacht carried with them as the German army [as opposed to the Nazi army]. Nor is it "cool," which I agree with.
I agree. While the nazis surely did use the Hakenkreuz, not every member of the military was obliged to have this insignia, and not every wall had propaganda posters. So yes, the Hakenkreuz has its merits in the game, if you're making a map that is based in or near a nazi stronghold (Berlin comes to mind...), but to spam it all over the place (garish worst-case example: Wolfenstein) is outright historically inaccurate, and arguably twisted. I'm by no means an expert on this, but I believe that the Imperial Cross (which I'm sure you all know as the shape of the Iron Cross) was much more common. Hence, it is the logo used for flags that are held by the axis team (and righlty so). People who convert the brit flags to aussie flags I can undestand, but not those who convert the axis Imperial Cross flags to Hakenkreuz flags.

...but as I started off saying, ultimately it's the choice of every single player. And a good thing (in this respect) is that everybody can't see what customizations everybody else is using.

I certainly seem to have struck a nerve here, eh? ;) :D

It's not your fault mate if people get the totally wrong end of the stick here.

persoanlly I think its a great idea to have the 'chaplin' style cross thing. Chaplin was class and I think the design would work quite well on a flag. Now I'm off to find cover before they start shooting again lol

*Puns on tin helmet and runs for the door*

Ska

Originally posted by nOisetank
Thank you for the history lesson of what you've learned from movies. I know the Swastika is a historical symbol used by many groups of people throughout history. But what I'm saying is that using the swastika in this time period is bad. If DOD had the Waffen SS instead of Wehrmacht, fine. I wouldnt care. I wouldn't like it, but it would be historically accurate. But I hardly think having swastikas in this game (especially when they shouldnt be in there to start with) has nothing to do with forgetting history or being historically inaccurate. I dont care if the swastika was around then, I'll say this again...THE SWASTIKA HAS NO PLACE WITH THE GERMAN WEHRMACHT IN DAY OF DEFEAT. Whether you think your historical principles or whatever are right or wrong, the swastika does not belong in Day of Defeat. End of story.

If both the National (http://www.flags.net/elements/gif_flags/WWIIGERM001.GIF) and War Flag (http://www.flags.net/elements/gif_flags/WWIIGERM003.GIF) of WWII Germany had the Swastika on them then how can you say the Swastika has no place in dod even if the default soldiers are from the Wehrmacht? They wouldnt be using an Iron Cross flag. And how can you say he got his information from movies that is very arrogant. How can you say the Swastika has no place within the Wehrmacht? No they werent the SS but they were fighting for NAZI germany, they are the German army but the German state was ruled by National Socialist Nazi's so how can you say they arent fighting for Nazi's?

i just thought ide say this:o
what does any of this have to do with MSA

Originally posted by gabagoo
i just thought ide say this:o
what does any of this have to do with MSA
Err? Apart from flags being shown in ART and on the skin of MODELS, nothing. :D Which other forum would it fit under, of not here?

This thread was started to suggest an alternative to the Nazi swastika to those of the MSA forum who might care to customize DoD with the Charlie chaplin double-X symbol. That's what it has to do with MSA.

The conversation's gone off kilter a little along the way, though.

The original intention of the thread was not to say whether or not the swastica or hakankreuz should be in the game. He was pointing out that there are some really crazy people out there who think DoD's a nazi recruitment tool the same as America's Army is [which should be banned because of that] and it might be funny to remember Chaplin.

Originally posted by nOisetank
Thank you for the history lesson of what you've learned from movies. I know the Swastika is a historical symbol used by many groups of people throughout history. But what I'm saying is that using the swastika in this time period is bad. If DOD had the Waffen SS instead of Wehrmacht, fine. I wouldnt care. I wouldn't like it, but it would be historically accurate. But I hardly think having swastikas in this game (especially when they shouldnt be in there to start with) has nothing to do with forgetting history or being historically inaccurate. I dont care if the swastika was around then, I'll say this again...THE SWASTIKA HAS NO PLACE WITH THE GERMAN WEHRMACHT IN DAY OF DEFEAT. Whether you think your historical principles or whatever are right or wrong, the swastika does not belong in Day of Defeat. End of story.

hey hey hey, i dont know what your getting angry about man. this isnt some fight. i was just presenting you with facts. and to say i got my information from movies is arrogant. i believe i know what im talking about when it somes to that; ive read up on it.

im with what tojam said on it. i think it does have a place in DOD. and besides, the infantry in DOD are not wermact, they are Heer. eather way the swastica would have been their battle flag. but you know what, this thread has gotten out of hand, so im done with the topic.

Originally posted by Roland
Since i dont see any SS or gestapo at all anywhere in DoD, i find it a stupid idea to put in a swastica in this game. Posters are one thing, patches on the ****ing arm of a german soldier is another!

Plus, i did say in my last post that if you need a nazi-swastica in this game to generate "atmosphere" to, in turn, play it properly, then yes, i do see you as a psyhically instable person which doesn't need a very powerful push to go postal with a gun in some town.

And by the way, i doubt that you would say something like that if you were jewish or if your grandparents were put into concentration camps. Being a communist, liberalist or a rebellic peasant is a whole 'nother thing than being jewish. You can instantly switch sides, from communist, to liberalist, to anarchist, though if you are a jew, you'll most probably never going to convert, since your love for your religion is too great. With myself being a christian, i know that i will never convert, meaning that i only can imagine what this suffering has caused the jews. That war has caused the jews bond tighter together because of their intensive repulsion from nazism, meaning that jews, (christians and muslims too) dont see themselves as groups of people, but rather like a separate race. (That does not sound right, but it is something like that.) Nothing you can do will stop them from feeling like that. Hence, if you commit genocide on jews, you commit genocide on a targeted group of people. Anyone can be a communist, and switch between all the politic beliefs, but jews will most probably forever be jews, as most christians will forever be christians, and most muslims will forever be muslims.
Its hard to explain, but thats just the way it is.

Hey Roland, heres an idea for you. If you dont like swastikas, then DONT Friggin play dod and dont join the forums. If you're christian, why do you care so much? It's just a game. If you dont like it so much, shut your pie hole and dont talk about it anymore

Taking Nazism out of World War 2 is ludicrous. If it weren't for National Socialism, there wouldn't have *BEEN* a World War 2.

For me, the entire allure of World War 2 is the uniquely clear cut good-versus-evil scenario. There is no question that the Nazis were evil and that the Allies were there to stop them.

I fully understand the sentiment expressed by the original poster - that of compromise - but this game means more to the fanbase than a motor-control excercise. It's excapism. It's fighting back the Huns (or trying to survive as one).

If WW2 was simply about driving the Weirmacht out of France, I wouldn't have cared. It was all the guys decorated in Swatiskas, SS runes, and totenkopfs that got people's blood boiling. Those guys loved their symbols. They'd drape them over anything they could. We came along and ripped them all down - blew up the ones too big to rip down. People fought and died for that chance.

That's why I want Swastikas in-game in places they would realistically be found. I want to trounce some Hitler loving fascists!.

Originally posted by Pvt. Paradox
Hey Roland, heres an idea for you. If you dont like swastikas, then DONT Friggin play dod and dont join the forums.

I think you've got things mixed up here, pal. Swastikas aren't in DOD. If you dont like that, how bout you dont play DOD & dont join the forums.

This is bull**** why can't people just leave it alone. Leave all the nazi stuff in the game it keeps the realism aspect in the game, not some censored American propaganda. If you support this you support propaganda and censorship, both ways on witch the government lies to you to protect their interests not you.

And another thing what hitler did to the jews happen 0ver 60 years ago hes dead and life gose on. i sorry that it happen, but its human nature to destroye our selves.

edit: oops sorry not buddhist

"The Swastika" is the oldest cross and emblem in the world. It forms a combination of four "L's" standing for Luck, Light, Love and Life. It has been found in ancient Rome, excavations in Grecian cities, on Buddhist idols, on Chinese coins dated 315 B.C., and our own Southwest Indians use it as an amulet.

http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.gif

look here for info (http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html)

Nikolaisqp, the swastika is banned in Germany and France - thus Valve can't sell DoD over there if there are swatiskas in it.

And noisetank, the Waffen-SS was *IN* the Wehrmacht. All SS military units were technically under Wehrmacht command.

Nazi flags would have been everywhere in Germany. They had a twenty year reign by the time Hitler offed himself.

It wasn't the Heer who motivated millions of Europeans to take up arms in the name of the Reich. It was the SS and it's popular volks divisions and community organizations.

As a Jewish man who had about 15 direct ancestors who were slaughtered in concentration camps, I do not want to see a swastika in any game I play. I realize that many do and I have no problem with that. But the swastika, and the SS bolts for that matter, give me chills down my back when I see it, and I don't want to get chills when playing a game. The DoD's solution of an Iron Cross was find with me.

If there are swastikas in a map, I find myself not playing the German side. I can't make myself fight for the swastika... I remember in early versions of the game I would only play as allies due to the swastika as the flag.

If not having the swastika is ruining gameplay for you, you are playing the game for the wrong reasons. I don't miss it. And frankly when I am running around, trying to cap a flag, I don't tend to think, damn there is no nazi flag hanging from the window, how unrealistic is this. Personalize your own game, who cares, but there are strict laws that prevent public display of the swastika, this has been said over and over. Thusly, valve or any other company that wants to sell the game to Germany (didnt know about france) cannot have them in game.

Ok, now why does only the Swastika offend the Jewish players? You don't become offended when you see a Christian Cross on the side of the road, and the Catholics actively made converts out of jews, and killed those that decided not to. The Swastika will always be a part of history now, for many reasons; and in my opnion, its your perception on how you look at it. You can see it has a symbol of hatred and death; or a symbol of Germany at the time. The SS, you must also remember, was divded between many "versions" for lack of a better word. The Waffen SS, which used the same symbols has the Camp SS, was more of an elite fighting force (as you all know...), while some times brutal, never had any direct relation to the death of 6 million jews. When I see an SS symbol, I first think "Damn, what elite fighters who served their country well", as it should be. I had family that died in the war, both German and American. I don't openly not play the US side because they killed my German faimly. I'd also like to point out, that in my house I have 2 Iron Crosses that my Great Uncle (I think thats what he is in relation to me) earned, as well as Various wound badges. They all have Swastikas on them. After the war the German government offered to replace the Swastika ones, with regular German ones, minus the Swastika. Every member of my Uncle's unit Declined.

HS The Whap - I think, subconciously if not directly, people relate the Nazi swastika with Hitler and his lackeys who *were* responsible for the horrible attrocities commited by the Germans.

And, despite the context, I do believe this thread is nearing Godwin's Law. :)

Nazis = Bad. There is no question about it. I simply like shooting Nazis. Ergo, I like my Axis soldiers to *look* like Nazis. If I'm playing a Nazi, I enjoy seeing the Allied fellow at the end of my rifle do his best to kill me.

Allright, why the hell is this still brought up? "Waah waah, the swastica isnt a bad symbol." At this period of time, it was. Period. And as far as concerning your stupid theory, HS the whap, why jews are not offended by christian crosses, maybe that is because we two forgave eachother a long, LONG time ago. Ask any jew what he thinks about christianity, and you will probably get a very friendly answer from him. Ask any christian what he thinks about jews. You'll get a friendly answer from him too.
Ask any nazi what he thinks about jews? Not so friendly answer. Not only does he hate the jews, the believers of the oldest monotheic religion on earth, but he doesnt even have a single ****ing reason for it. I mean, come on. "They have too much control, they steal all our jobs!". Thats the same bull**** as saying "all muslims are suicidebombers and terrorists."
Further on, AFAC the swastica in DoD, that thing DOES NOT BELONG ANYWHERE EXCEPT ON NAZI-THEMED STRONGHOLDS! PERIOD! @ Sheik Yerbouti: I doubt that anyone could have said it better: "If not having the swastika is ruining gameplay for you, you are playing the game for the wrong reasons."

It could be worse (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/scitzo/hitler2.jpg)

Noone seems to be convincing anyone else of the merits of their own side of the argument - so what are we still doing talking about this? :confused:

Originally posted by MaRzY
It could be worse (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/scitzo/hitler2.jpg)

Whoa, Jesus that is fugly.... talk about killing a game.

The swastika may have been the Nazi party symbol, but it also became the national flag of Germany from 1939 to 1945. To alter the national battle flag of Germany in that era and replace the swastika with a WWI-era Iron Cross is, I believe, a form of revisionist history.

I agree wholeheartedly with batman. if it is a game, movie or anything that is historically related it should be 100% historically accurate for what its portraying. DoD portrays the Heer, a non-nazi group led by nazi leaders. since the heer used the red white and black flag with a swastika as their battle flag then it should be in the game.

Lest we forget...

revisionism starts small with something like this...

btw people in my religon and people from my country were killed by nazis in ww2, yet I am not offended if a swastika is ingame for historical accuracy.

Originally posted by nOisetank
I think you've got things mixed up here, pal. Swastikas aren't in DOD. If you dont like that, how bout you dont play DOD & dont join the forums.

There were swastikas on my old models. They also do now...using devin's models. HOws bout that? Roland is talking about how swastikas have no place in dod. If he doesnt like it, then he should jus quit with how swastikas are bad, we all know that. He should just stick with default player models or w/e

Originally posted by McFly
All SS military units were technically under Wehrmacht command.


From what I've read, the SS were seperate from the Wehrmacht.

Originally posted by McFly
[...]despite the context, I do believe this thread is nearing Godwin's Law.
Wow, given that the very first word in my subject line was "Hitler", didn't this thread start out at probablility 1.0? :) Uh-oh, and does that mean I've voided my argument before I ever set a cursor in the "body" field? :rolleyes:
FYI (for the rest of you)... Godwin's law explained: (1) (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html) (2) (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/)

Originally posted by maRtin
Noone seems to be convincing anyone else of the merits of their own side of the argument - so what are we still doing talking about this? :confused:
If your statement above had any effect in the real world, there would be 1/10th as many posts in this forum. :D Just because nobody's listening is no reason to shut up, it seems... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by MaRzY
"It could be worse"

LOL Marzy, don't tease me like that!

:rolleyes:
according to Godwin's law this thread should be
closed

Now that people are just freaking out in the utmost juvenile way about what should otherwise be fairly serious, I have to agree with Gabagoo.

Originally posted by Sarge0087
From what I've read, the SS were seperate from the Wehrmacht. From what I understand, the SS was separate from the Wehrmacht. But here's where the confusion comes in. There were actually three branches of SS: The home front or Allgemeine SS were generally a policing staff. The Totenkopfuerbande SS, or Death's-head SS, administered the concentration camps. They were the real creeps that gave all of the SS a dark name, although I'm sure most of the SS had no idea what was going on in the camps. The third branch was the Waffen (armed) SS, they were like paramilitaries and were placed under Wehrmacht command as a supplement to the Heer (General Army), although there was usually a rivalry between the Waffen SS and the Heer.

The Waffen often sent wounded soldiers to run quiet guard duty at camps, while recovering.

All Waffen survivors suffer[ed] the bad name of the other two branches [I've personally heard there were two; the death's-head thing is rooted in the history of infantrymen, which is what the symbol stands for dispite its obvious tastelessness, so I'm inclined to consider them full part of the Waffen, myself] because the guys who ran the show didn't make enough of a distinction between them on paper or otherwise.

Originally posted by KlaymenDK
If your statement above had any effect in the real world, there would be 1/10th as many posts in this forum. :D Just because nobody's listening is no reason to shut up, it seems... :rolleyes:
From what I have read so far that doesn't seem to be such a bad thing :rolleyes:

Well, first of all, in response to the very first post, in this jungle of arguments:

I find the article at ADL to be disrepectful towards Germans in general. I wasn't aware that simply because a battle command is in German, it's automatically evil. I guess you learn something new everyday.

Regarding the whole swastika issue...

The German army did make use of the swastika, regardless of whether they were in the Schutzstaffeln divisions or not. To everyone who claimed that the German army did not make use of the swastika, please go to this link:

http://kneller.com/Wehrmacht/

Click on the 6th link down, on the left (Hoheitszeichen). A small quote from that page, if you'd rather not go to it:

German law mandated that the national emblem was worn over the right breast of military uniforms. When the Nazis came to power, the national emblem was changed. Instead of the Imperial eagle of the First World War, the Nazis introduced the new emblems. Those are the ones you see displayed through the site.

And what is that emblem? An eagle gripping a swastika in it's claws.

Here's another link, with a closeup the breast area of an actual uniform:

http://site27663.dellhost.com/Wehrmacht/HTML%20Pages/Uniforms/uniformmp4011.html

And yet another, where you can see the the belt buckle, that was issued to a unit of the Wehrmacht. While I could certainly be wrong, I can't see Germany making different kinds of belts for different units. If I were a betting man, I'd say EVERY soldier in the Wehrmacht wore a belt like this one.

http://site27663.dellhost.com/Wehrmacht/HTML%20Pages/Uniforms/uniformbelt.html

Here's a Wehrmacht sidecap:

http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/germanuniforms/images/Wehrsidecap.jpg

German helmets with Wehrmacht decals:

http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/germanuniforms/images/Wehr_stahlhelm.jpg

A real picture from the war, of Heer soldiers. Check out their helmets.

http://www.angelraybooks.com/images/heerpic.jpg

And, one more link, with a multitude of flags from the era:

http://www.worldwidemilitaria.com/flags_Ger.htm

.......

But the Wehrmacht didn't use swastikas. Right.


Now, the next part of my post: should they be in the game? In my eyes (my opinion!), yes... they should. Why? Because they were there in the war. Just because a soldier had a swastika on his helmet, or on his uniform, did that mean he believed in the Nazi ideology? No. Not at all. It meant that he had been drafted for the army (and practically every man of any physical shape WAS drafted, or he went in voluntarily), and that is what the army issued him. Why? Because the National Socialist party was the party that was in power, and THAT is what they made. The soldier didn't have a choice.

So yes, I think it should be there. It was simply a part of history. To imply that simply because a soldier had a helmet on his head, with a swastika on it, made him evil... that's insulting. It's simply what was issued to him. To take it out of the game is to take a part of history away... in essence, to try to erase it. It's like saying, "The Nazis didn't use the swastika. They used the Iron Cross." That's not right! What's more is, if you were to play Day of Defeat, and see the Iron Cross everywhere... and then you look into World War 1... what do you think THEN? Were the Germans Nazis during World War 1, too? They used Iron Crosses!

Pure stupidity.
----------------------------

The following are just my thoughts regarding Nazism, Germans, and so forth. If you don't care to read it, please don't.

----------------------------

Did the Nazi era produce many sick, evil individuals? You bet. Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, Goering, Mengele... all of them evil, cold, hateful.

Does that mean that every soldier on the field believed what those few men believed? No, it does not. To me, that is insulting to a great many German soldiers that fought during the war. They HAD to fight. What's more is, many people forget (or simply don't acknowledge) the fact that Hitler and all his goons were pretty much lying to the entire country, army included. If you look at it from the German soldier's point of view, he thought he was simply fighting for his country - something all of us would do, if it came to it, I believe. He was told that his country was at war, and he could help by fighting for his country.

'Nuff said! Gimme that gun!

Another thing that irks me about people today is that they act like all Germans are still evil, or something. They even say German is an ugly, evil language. What the hell?

Germans aren't any more evil than Americans, or British people, or Australian, or ANYONE on the planet. To stereotype them due to an insane era of history, fueld by a madman, is simply insulting. It's much like the whole "white people used to have slaves, that was evil!" What do we say? "That was a long time ago... we're not the ones that did it!" Same thing goes for Germans. Germans of today aren't Nazis. They're Germans. Period.

And regarding the language: people who say it is an "ugly, evil" language must be pretty narrowminded, especially the ones that say that, using ENGLISH. English and German are practically siblings when it comes to languages. As a sidenote to the whole "ugly, evil" thing - if all you've ever heard of German is Hitler screaming at thousands of SS men, then yes - it IS an ugly, evil language. Try listening to some modern German radio, where they're just talking. Not ugly at all.

Anyway... I guess I'll sum all of this up in a short paragraph, for those of you who didn't want to read all of it:

I feel swastikas should be left in, due to historical reasons, but I understand why Valve took them out. Not being able to sell in certain countries due to bans on the swastika would drastically cut sales. I don't think that having swastikas on flags or uniforms in the game is wrong - it's simply historically correct. It doesn't mean you're fighting for evil. It means you're a German soldier, and that's what you were given. Simple as that. It's part of the immersion factor. And that's what DOD is about - immersing you in a battle during World War 2. At least, that's what I feel.

------------------------------------

One last note before I end this: I am not German. I'm an American. I simply do not like Americans and other nationalities bashing Germans, over atrocities that happened 50 years ago, with which they had NOTHING to do with.

I guess that's the end. Feel free to flame me, if you wish... I honestly don't care.

NOTE: Just for the record, I do NOT believe in the Nazi ideology. I personally feel that it was very much insane, and I detest any form of racism (whether it's black, Jewish, or anything else). I mean no disrepect to any Jewish people on this forum, and I hope you may see my point in this post. If not, that's fine. You have every right to feel however you feel.

Krieg, very well said indeed!

By the way, a quick question for anyone, as sometimes the branches of the SS do get confusing. Were the Gestapo part of the Allgemeine SS? I believe Gestapo were SS, and I would imagine they were Allgemeine.

Originally posted by Heinrich M
Krieg, very well said indeed!

By the way, a quick question for anyone, as sometimes the branches of the SS do get confusing. Were the Gestapo part of the Allgemeine SS? I believe Gestapo were SS, and I would imagine they were Allgemeine.

Thanks for the compliment.

The Allgemeine SS was the political and administrative branch of the SS. The Gestapo was the SS version of a police force. (By the way, Gestapo is a combination of "Geheime Staatspolizei"). The Waffen SS was simply the "armed" SS - SS units trained specifically for military actions. They were later mixed in with the regular Wehrmacht, even though there was a lot of rivalry between the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS.

Hope that helps clear some things up.

And don't forget to dl the Hitler DoD Console here:
http://www.dayofdefeat.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5263&highlight=hitler

Thank you for that, Krieg. I'm no historical expert. I was trying to clarify what... Ummm... I forget his name now. What he was trying to say, since there seemed to be little understanding.

Krieg, thanks for the info!

[RANTMODE]

Hell lets just remove the guns from DoD...after all, they are the things that actually kill someone, not the bloody flags /sarcasm.

I love the way people ***** about a bit of historically-accurate cloth being so offensive, but dont mind running around with an arsenal of guns killing/shooting/mutiliating other people. Oh wait, thats different isnt it? Killing is ok just as long as you do it under Politically Correct colors....yeah, everything is ok as long as you pretend to kill 1000 simulated human beings under a "non offensive" flag. And before you say it, yes, i KNOW the killing is just a part of the game, and its only "simulated", but then the flag is only a "simulation" too. If some ******* kid thinks its "kewl" to wave a swastika around and yell "Heil Hitler!", he will soon realize its a bad idea when he gets his ass tucked in by a dozen feet!

Now i just KNOW im not the only one to see the hypocrisy in this sort of attitude. Whats next, removing the symbol from history books? Lets let kids think/learn that the non-offensive Iron Cross was really the Nazi sign instead? thereby condemning generations of NON-NAZI germans/soldiers who wear or use the Iron Cross to condemnation from our own people who are now ignorant of what the hell they are actually looking at because of being wrapped in cotton wool?

It may be a game, but it is set in WW2...and like it or not, the swastika WAS the national symbol of Germany during/just before the entire conflict. Taking out a ****ing symbol isnt going to change the wrongs that happened then, but it sure as hell insults those who fought for the right to Free Speech etc in the first place. I thought banning stuff that was "politically unacceptable" was exactly the sort of thing the bloody facists were condemned for in the first place? Removing the damn symbol isnt going to change ANYTHING, and i find it more offensive to see this BS whitewash of history taking place than i do any bloody motheaten swastika flag.

If you dont want to see historically accurate symbols/weapons/uniforms/insignia from World War II, then dont play a ****ing game set during World War II, and go download a Barbie Dressing simulator instead.

Jesus...you play a game where the object is to blow the opponents virtual-brains out, but instead are offended by the FLAGS! Nice to see where priorities lay these days :rolleyes:

If you dont want swastikas, no problem, but dont go around calling people borderline nazis just because THEY are mature and adult enough to be able to deal with some historical accuracy, because it reeks of self-righteous hypocrisy. The only "nazis" i see are the ones trying to ban and remove historical symbols from history like they never existed.

Wolfsglen, couldn't have said it better myself. Way to go! :)

Well said, Wolfsglen. Very well said.