G'day,

I'm doing a map which is like large farm paddocks, dividing by rivers, hedges and roads.

My first question is, using displacements for the terrain of, well, everything (grass, rivers, roads) what's the best way to go about it? Because you have to keep the displacements at certain size so they can properly join up and sew together...

any tips? such as...

Do displacements to the power of 4 take a lot of 'computing' or 'loading'? because if not, then i could just make a grid of square brushes, apply the same displacement to them all and that will be easy to shape...

much easier than what i'm currently doing, which is basically making high power displacements for what's needed, and low displacements for what's not as important. but it's real hard keeping all the brushes relative sizes to sew properly.

My 2nd question is, you know that farm land pasture look of the two different textures used like stripes, is that usually done using one special texture specifically for that, or just using two textures in a striped fashion using alpha masking (and a high power displacement in that case)?

many thanks, i'll more question in the future.

Originally posted by trueblue
G'day,

I'm doing a map which is like large farm paddocks, dividing by rivers, hedges and roads.

My first question is, using displacements for the terrain of, well, everything (grass, rivers, roads) what's the best way to go about it? Because you have to keep the displacements at certain size so they can properly join up and sew together...

any tips? such as...

Do displacements to the power of 4 take a lot of 'computing' or 'loading'? because if not, then i could just make a grid of square brushes, apply the same displacement to them all and that will be easy to shape...

much easier than what i'm currently doing, which is basically making high power displacements for what's needed, and low displacements for what's not as important. but it's real hard keeping all the brushes relative sizes to sew properly.

My 2nd question is, you know that farm land pasture look of the two different textures used like stripes, is that usually done using one special texture specifically for that, or just using two textures in a striped fashion using alpha masking (and a high power displacement in that case)?

many thanks, i'll more question in the future.

Hey trueblue! Welcome to the forums :)
As far as I am aware (please, anyone that knows better please correct me :) ), if you want your displacements to sew up together they need to all be of the same 'power', and if you add noise to your displacements I think that all of those displacements that will sew together need to have the same 'noise' levels as well.
You could also layer your displacements... if you decompile the official maps from VALVe you can see some places where there will be say 2 displacements sewn together, and then there will be a 3rd displacement maybe in the middle to maybe add more realism to the terrain. Layering does cost you a little bit though in terms of compiling and performance in my experience, so you might want to use it sparingly. If you have any more questions about that let me know.
Also yes, the higher the power for the displacements, the more processing is required for the terrain.

As for your 2nd question, the land pasture texture you are talking about: is this something similar to what you see in Flash at the Axis' 2nd flag, and then with the rolling hills in the 3d skybox? If so that is actually an overlay. You can find it in the entities list named 'info_overlay.' This is a very useful overlay and I have used it a bit in my own map. So as far as I am aware you cannot do this pasture type texture without doing an overlay. In other words, I don't think there is a 'blend' texture that will let you do this with Paint Alpha (but again, I could be wrong, but to my knowledge this is just an overlay).
So I hope that this helps you trueblue! If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask :)

Sincerely,
Chris

Thank you very much TF2! What kind service we have here.

The info_overlay makes sense and i'll try that out soon.

Below is a link to a screenie of the displacements i'm doing in Hammer. You can see that the higher power displacements resemble the river bed and paths and things like that. You can see that at the middle bottom of the image there are two displacements that don't match up at all, hehe, but it's okay i've just got those two edges on the same level so they do match up, for now anyways.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/bluedude/displacements1.jpg

Does it look right? Any tips are great :). From what the pic shows, is this the 'layering' technique that you're talking about TF2?

Few more quickies:
- The alpha masking textures in Hammer show up opposite in the game, is this meant to be? So in Hammer i have to invert them all, they don't look right in Hammer but they do in the game. Still a bit hard to work with though.

- Can you adjust what textures blend? So i can blend two textures what arn't already a blending texture?

- Can i adjust the texture of the hedges model?

- Can i use sky textures from CS;S or Lost Coast and such? And how would i load them into Hammer?

Originally posted by trueblue
Thank you very much TF2! What kind service we have here.

The info_overlay makes sense and i'll try that out soon.

Below is a link to a screenie of the displacements i'm doing in Hammer. You can see that the higher power displacements resemble the river bed and paths and things like that. You can see that at the middle bottom of the image there are two displacements that don't match up at all, hehe, but it's okay i've just got those two edges on the same level so they do match up, for now anyways.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/bluedude/displacements1.jpg

Does it look right? Any tips are great :). From what the pic shows, is this the 'layering' technique that you're talking about TF2?

Few more quickies:
- The alpha masking textures in Hammer show up opposite in the game, is this meant to be? So in Hammer i have to invert them all, they don't look right in Hammer but they do in the game. Still a bit hard to work with though.

- Can you adjust what textures blend? So i can blend two textures what arn't already a blending texture?

- Can i adjust the texture of the hedges model?

- Can i use sky textures from CS;S or Lost Coast and such? And how would i load them into Hammer?

You are very welcome trueblue.

So at the middle bottom of the screen with the 2 displacements that don't match up to the rest of the terrain, are you able to sew those together? If not, then what you will have to do is 'layering.' So at the point where the 2 displacements aren't matching you will have to create another displacement maybe below the 2 displacements, and as well you will probably need to make the new displacement big enough to cover the gaps that you have with the displacements not matching up. So the idea in my head is that once you create a displacement below the others you will then use Paint Geometry and raise the terrain so that the new displacement will then cover up the gaps and add more 'curves' or 'buldges' or what have you to the terrain.

So, so far your terrain looks very good, but if you could could you provide either another picture from Hammer showing hte same screen but without all of the terrain highlighted, as well as being out of the displacement menu, or an in-game screen shot from that same angle (sv_cheats 1, then noclip to get to that height and angle to see the level from above) so that we can get a better picture (pun intended :) ) of how it is coming together?

And I'm not too clear on this one thing right here (so if FD or anyone else can chime in here that would be very appreciated), but I'm not sure if you need all of your terrain to sew together as long as you make sure you cover up the gaps with displacements that overlap, thereby covering up the gaps created with terrain not snapped together.

What blend textures are you trying to Paint Alpha by the way? And if the textures are showing up opposite in the game then I think you can just then use the Paint Alpha tool to re-paint the terrain in the opposite way that you did and it should turn out fine. Yea, in the editor for instance if you use the blend texture that is used in Flash, while the texture is just green in Hammer, it will show up green in-game, but also with flower and other such sprites on the terrain. And if you paint the texture to brown, it will show up brown. So yes, it is a little confusing to not know how your blends will show up in-game, but that is why you should do a quick compile after you make a change with painting the terrain to see how it turned out :) But keep experimenting with it, it will get easier!

"Can you adjust what textures blend? So i can blend two textures what arn't already a blending texture?"

-I think I have seen somewhere where you can do that, but I am really not sure how you would do this. I think there is a file that you need to edit to accomplish this.

With regards to the hedges model I do not think you can change the texture of it without actually doing some modeling yourself with something like Softimage XSI...

And with regards to adding those Skybox textures mentioned above: first, will your level support HDR (High Dynamic Range)? If so then you will only want to import Skybox textures that support HDR (they should be marked 'such and such level skybox_HDR). This list can be found at: http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Sky_List

This is the official VALVe Software Wiki for modders.

And so once you've found the Skybox you like just copy the name (for example: sky_lostcoast_hdr
This will be the Skybox for The Lost Coast as it says in the name. Then go to 'Map' at the top in Hammer, the scroll down to 'Map Properties', then click on 'Skybox texture name' and paste the name of the Skybox that you copied from the page. Make sure (and this goes for almost everything you do in Hammer when editing things) that when you have finished pasting the name in the field that you hit 'Apply' afterwards! If you do not and just close out the box you will not have a Skybox...

I hope this answers most of your questions :) Keep it up!

Chris

Make sure to "fit" each displacement "piece" to its corresponding "area".

The way I did my first map attempt was by creating all displacements in the terrain first and then putting the buildings on top of it. I was clueless of what to do when I wanted to have specific submerged brushes... like a basement to a house or a... retaining wall or something (or even to make the displacement not oversized and have unnecessary displacement feeding into nonenterable houses). The displacement edges did not line up and fixing it would be more work then it was worth.

To make sure displacements sew and line up properly they need to be mathematically arranged in a clear and organized way. I don't know the best way to do so... but my new strategy that I'm going to use for my next attempt is to first make all the terrain with basic grass brushes. First make the map "function" with its building layouts and then figure out visibility and move buildings around to get the most logical field of views from all around the map (doing so at such a point would be relatively easy considering the terrain is just basic brush work and there are little to no extraneous detailing). I'd then try a private beta to fine tune gameplay, make my changes, and THEN go through and add displacement terrain around all the terrain brushes, making them as flush as possible to all "area" edges. Realisticly the brush geometry version of the terrain could then be changed to nodraw for very accurate sealing.

Sorry if I kind of sidetracked and rambled, but I'd love to hear an experienced mapper's take on my "approach".

It may have nothing to do with mapping per say, but let me remind you that even if your map looks extremily awesome in the end, it could easily end up being forgotten due to poor design and tactical gameplay.

Personally, I totally HATE open field maps for the one and only reason that they often end up being a sniper-mg fight. Hedges and debris here and there can appease this effect but they will just create a very bland map like (sorry for the people who like it) dod_verdun, it's pretty much an open field with randomly placed hedges and the realism of the whole scenery is greatly decreased. Just remember that tanks and jeeps and your friends!

As for you nave, I don't quite understand how your tactic for making displacements quite works... But here's a good and easy way to make displacements:

Sewing is your friend, power of 2's are your friends also. Make 128x128 "tiles" all over the land you need displaced.
Texture all their faces with NODRAW, and texture ONLY the TOP (showing) surface with your grass/terrain texture. Do this all around the buildings, and if some squares' limits dont fit with others, split their size in 2 or multiply per 2 to get a good fit of the edges (like 2 128x128 squares lined against one 256x256 will make good sewing). Then select all the grass/terrain faces from the blocks and create one displacement out of them. Hammer will automatically create correct sew points and you'll be able to sew/alpha paint/geo paint without any displacements working awkwardly.

Ahhh yes i see now what you mean by layering displacements, i didn't think that you can just intersect displacements like that to fill gaps! Nice.

Image of the map in-game. Hope it helps. Don't mind the textures though, i'm just playing around with them at the moment, and obviously got the wrong grass texture cause they have the 'skybox sprites', so i read somewhere :).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/bluedude/displacements2.jpg

Thanks for all ya help.

P.S., any tips on finishing a map? Haha, i always start a new map before i finish one, cause i get a new idea :(. Nah i'm just joking, i gotta work at it i know.

I think a solution to the whole sniper fest thing could be to make it an objective map (granted it'd probably have to wait until the code is added). For example, when I'd play dod_charlie my k:d ratio may have been weak but I'd be doing great on the objectives and having a lot of fun. In an open field of view there is nothing you can do about snipers getting most kills, but if you move the focus onto an objective and design the map such that it IS attainable for the objective seeking team... who cares about the kills?

As for you nave, I don't quite understand how your tactic for making displacements quite works... But here's a good and easy way to make displacements:


My tactic is more an attempt to make the map have a feeling that the terrain and and architecture are mutually integrated into one another. And of course to create as little displacement bleed as possible.

I'm definitely comfortable with the idea of working with powers of two, but I'm not comfortable with the idea of throwing down all the displacement first... I'm still traumatized by my first map attempt. :D

I'm currently writing a tutorial on how to properly use (At least, that's what I think) displacements with virtually no bleeding.

This is great stuff, learning a lot. So now i've learnt that i'm not the only one traumatised by displacements :D. What i really need to do is design the map properly. Too quickly i have taken a bite at laying down displacements.

I think i've gotta take this more seriously, properly design the map, objectives, field of views and such then start mapping the basic layout with plain brushes and buildings and whot-not, then the displacements and model details.

But all this info is great and will help me in the future, very much :). Nice tute on displacements too btw dash.

I always draw my maps on paper before doing anything in the editor, this way you have a clear idea of where to place displacements and such. I usually use grid paper with a scale of 1 square = 128 units

I made a search for tutorial that can become really helpfull to searching for specific things like displacement. I keep adding them when I have time.

http://www.dod-federation.com/tut_search.php

For now it only use one word in the search and will search all words from the tutorial. I want to upgrade it to multiple word search when I get the time.

I am currently working on a very open map. 10000 x 10000 unit. I am testing fog to make the map less a sniper/mg festival and more FPS friendly. It will be a objective based map :)

Hey Dash!

Hey I wanted to say great job on the tutorial, and thanks a lot for clearing some things up for me. I have never seen anything, anywhere on what you have done and I thank you for that. Back to the drawing board!

Thanks again.

Chris

Originally posted by Dash
I usually use grid paper with a scale of 1 square = 128 units

How can such a simple idea be so brilliant?

You asked about Texture Blending. I haven't done this yet, but here's two links on doing customized blends (once you figure it out, I'll PM you and have you do one for me :) )

From this Forum (http://www.dayofdefeat.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47452&highlight=blending+textures)

Snarkpit Texture Blending Tutorial (http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL2&id=181)

texture blending is so easy, you make a vmt file with this in it:

"WorldVertexTransition"
{
"$basetexture" "ground/snow01"
"$basetexture2" "nature/mudfloor001a"
"$surfaceprop" "snow"
"$lightwarptexture" "ground\snow_warp"
"$envmap" "env_cubemap"
"$basealphaenvmapmask" "1"
"%tooltexture" "ground/snow01"
"%keywords" "longbow"
}

basically I opened a other snow blend texture and changed the $basetexture2 to the texture I needed. So if you want to make a grass mud one let say, then open one current grass blending file and change the second texture to a exisiting texture name or to a custom texture you have made.

"%tooltexture" "ground/snow01" is the texture it will show in the textures browser in hammer

"$surfaceprop" "snow" is for the noise it will mae. If it's wood it will make wood sound if you put wood there for grass same thing.

You obviously don't realize the level of Noob you are dealing with, CoolHand (speaking of my Noodleheaded self). To make a VMT, do you save the notepad document as ".vmt"?

And then where do you save it to? And how did you know I needed a snow/mud blended tex? ;)

You need to save it with the vmt extension, otherwise notepad will make it a .txt file.

Best way to do it is to create a new folder in the materials folder
..\dod\materials\newfolder\blend.vmt
Name it the same as your map and put all your custom blends and materials into that folder so you can easily find them all when you include them into the bsp or zip file when you release the map.

To find them in game, restart hammer, go into the materials browser and just type the name of your map. It will filter everything out and leave you with what is in your new folder.

Originally posted by Ol' Noodle Head
You obviously don't realize the level of Noob you are dealing with

Actually, i understood that :) only because i've been messing around with textures and vmt's all day :/. But nice info CoolHand i'll be coming back to that info shortly.

Thank you MrGrubby, that is very clear.

Trueblue, I hope you didn't think I was talking about anyone but myself. :)

Ol' Noodle Head, this is a blend I did for my map I am working on, got one with rock as well and since it's a snow map, I might get some more too.

Cool, I just tried it and it worked like magic! You guys are awesome.