Ok having spent over 10 weeks working on my map pretty solid, and having optomised to the best of my ability I am now in the process of doing a full compile.


So far it has been running for over 48HOURS and has not finished. Is this usual?

The problem I have is that there is no way of telling if it has crashed or is still running as Hammer has a habit of reporting itself as "not responding" on a fast compile when it obviously is running as it completes the process.

I have looked back on a previous log from a fast compile and I do have this error and I wonder if it is causing the problem.

-0.923360 1.065446 0.000000
-0.923360 -1.064091 0.000000
-0.923360 0.863873 0.000000
-1.142563 1.065446 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-0.923360 1.065446 0.000000
-0.923360 -1.064091 0.000000
-0.923360 0.863873 0.000000
-1.142563 1.065446 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert

However if I go to view those co-ordinates there is nothing obvious to see that could be causing the problem.

Size wise my map is aprrox 17.5mb on a compile with vvis set to fast and Rad on normal.

Any help would be appreciated as I am very close to hitting the delete button which would be such a shame after the response I had from play testing.

Cheers guys

Usualy this is cause by bad brush work that when looking at it, it seem fine. I remember working on a map that had such bad brush work. Best way to see it is to go in glview to find those brush and make then func_brush. In GLView mode look for many white line in one place. This is causing many leaves.

For example in one map I had the conventional rounded roof of a church over the hotel. Well that was really bad. I did like it when i was looking at it in hammer. but vis did not. Since I understood this I have been able to keep compiling under 30 minutes. Anything that vis don't like and you can make it func_brush, then so be it.

You will end up in more performant map in the end even if you might have to work harder on optimisation because you made a roof func_brush for instense. Anyway you look at it bad brush create more leaf and to many leaf relate to bad performance.

If you can't figure it out, I can have a look at it and find what is wrong.

I have looked back on a previous log from a fast compile and I do have this error and I wonder if it is causing the problem.

-0.923360 1.065446 0.000000
-0.923360 -1.064091 0.000000
-0.923360 0.863873 0.000000
-1.142563 1.065446 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-0.923360 1.065446 0.000000
-0.923360 -1.064091 0.000000
-0.923360 0.863873 0.000000
-1.142563 1.065446 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert

I have had this problem on claviers for quite some time now. Interlopers reports it as a problem with a valve model which causes no ill effect to compile times or in-game performance.

Given the 48hour+ compile time, I can say with some confidence that your problem will be in overlapping and/or complex world brushes. World brushes must never overlap. My compile times shot up recently and I managed to find the problem which was a new brush I had made which SLIGHTLY overlapped with another brush. I resized it and the map compiled in half the time.

Look out for this error as the compile starts up:

FindPortalSide: Couldnt find a good match for which brush to assign to a portal near (x,y,z)

Info: http://www.interlopers.net/errors/index.php?e=2-5

And, most importantly in my opinion, this one:

WARNING: Cluster portals saw into cluster

Info: http://www.interlopers.net/errors/index.php?e=3-3

(I am pretty sure) The cluster portals error relates directly to overlapping world geometry.

And as coolhand mentioned, the best way to optimise your map with regards to VIS compile times is to make brushes that dont block vis into func_detail

If you can have a look at it CoolHand I would appreciate it very much. Let me know where to send you the .vmf and I can send it tonight.

Go easy on me though this is my first attempt so as you say it may be down to poor brush work ;) ;) ;)

Check your PM, I will send you a e-mail

Thanks CoolHand appreciate your help :D :D :D

Thank you for that Interlopers error list. Just had a whacked out 10 hour compile, and I got that "FindPortalSide" error. It was due to my foolhardy misuse of a couple HINT brushes. Gahh! Optimization is tough.

I think I need to hire an Optimization Consultant.

I did have a look at it yesterday and did find these error

NODRAW on terrain surface!
NODRAW on terrain surface!
NODRAW on terrain surface!
NODRAW on terrain surface!
NODRAW on terrain surface!
NODRAW on terrain surface!
NODRAW on terrain surface!
NODRAW on terrain surface!
NODRAW on terrain surface!
NODRAW on terrain surface!

All were easy to fix. only need to use:

View -> Screen elements -> Filter control

and in there make everythin invisible and only put back displacement.


WARNING: Cluster portals saw into cluster

The other error are basically the water brush under the bridge that get inside some other brush. Actually the foundation on the bridge. they can touch but not go inside on a other.

Now that said and fixed, it will help in compile time I guess but the optimisation is not working.

First the good new. Your brush work is very clean. I =have seen maps that forget helping out, all brush needed to be redone in some extreme case. Your work is really clean and the map look really good.

Also you understand how to use hint and the placement seem fine. Still where ever you are, you draw the whole map.

Look here. Worl draw is pushing on top rigth and then the next one are the models.

http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/finalopt70001.jpg

On the model side, they all need to have a fade in and out set on them and they need to be the shortest possible. Now look at the next two images. one is on one side and the other is onthe other side. You can see many of them do not have the fade set on them. In your case this is a must and will help FPS. you can identify them on these image if you know your map well.

http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/finalopt7e0000.jpg

http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/finalopt7e0001.jpg

Now what is killing the FPS are the world brush drawing. Basically the hint are well place but useless. Here is why, the bottom leak everywhere under. all sidewalk, displacement need no draw world brush under in a maner that seal it. You have have one but only many unit below (the dept of the river) and everything leak there trough the whole map. Worse place is the tunnel and useally this is the easiest to create closed area. Why, because you walls are all func_detail. They do not block anything and thus the whole map is being drawn.

to show you what I mean, I remove the bottom worl brush that seal the map with the skybox:

http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/under_all.jpg

Now here 3 more that show you close and why the world was being draw

http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/under1.jpg

http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/under2.jpg

http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/under2a.jpg

I started to seal the bottom of the map and as soon as I am finish I will start a fast compile to check the FPS, last fast compile took me 40 minutes and I ahd under 20 in every corner of the map. So once the bottom is sealed, then the hint that are well place will start working for you. When I say seladed I mean directly under displacement in roads, grass etc... also the river was all Func_detail this need to be sealed with all tunnel as well.

Now the top part might also need to be address. But the next compile will tell more once the bottom is seal. So hang in there. Basically the error you did was to not seal directly under the map. once a leak go under, it see everything. Also look at image from Anvil, decompiled and how he close the skybox on worl brush on building to create close area:


this is how he closed everythin under the map.
http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/anvil_under.jpg

2 shot of how he work the skybox directly on building
http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/anvil_sky1.jpg

http://www.dod-federation.com/images/map/anvil_sky2.jpg

I will send you a e-mail of what I have done as soon as I get the compile and check the FPS

Wow thanks for that Coolhand I think I understand most of what you are saying

I did go through the map and set the fade in and out distances on every model one by one, but the problem I have is that most of the ones that show on your screenshot can be seen from the church tower. If I fade them so you cant see them when at ground level you can from the tower and you then end up with a black square were the model use to be particularly with the Dormer Windows, but maybe if they are still causing and fps issue I will have to live with that.

Its nice to know that my brush work is tidy and that best of all my hints have been placed in the correct way even if they aren't working at the moment because of the sealing fault.

If you can iron out the sealing problem for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Once again thanks for all your help with this you are a star.

One of the problem, mapper often don't understand is map layout. For example you can go around each and every building and it's become almost impossible to close the skybox lik in anvil dijon or salerno. All these maps create box that can easely be sealed kind of by bringing the sky box on the top of the roofs.

Your's is almost impossible to do because you building are not side by side but open in between each of then.

the other error many make is that tower that see all the map. How do you want to seal a map so not everything get drawn, if you see all the map. This is a mathematical simple fact. if you see it all you need to draw it all. Now let's say you would have done one quarter of the map lower and have a tower in there that see this 1 quater of the map only, then it's possible to hide the 3 quater left and optimise things.

The other thing possible is to use fog. If you don't see more the X unit with the fog, then you can set all props to fade along those unit distance. It's also possible to make sky box come down to roof top and seal area since the tower would not see past where you take the sky down to the roof of building.

One more thing I did not mentioned is all the building should use areaprotal. Nothing link to door, simple put in all opening so this would raise FPS inside and outside the building because you did seal them. Some part would be visible from inside out or outside in, but it does cut a lot of thing drawn. One last things is occluder, but they should only be used carfully and I usually never used them because they can cause more arm then good.

So basically does that mean that I am fighting a lost cause and should scrap the map, or will sealing the floor as you mentioned earlier help improve the fps together with the hints that I have placed, and setting the fade distances for the modles that you highlighted in your earlier post.

If it is a case that I can't improve the fps with the map how it is then I may as well scrap it and start a new one, as to make drastic changes to it will mean I will end up with a map that doesn't resemble what I wanted :(

I did try sealing the buildings with area_portals and managed to seal 3 or 4 of them but after that every building I tried to seal gave me errors on compile, and no matter how hard I looked I just couldn't see why I was getting them. I couldn't see that it was down to brush work because as you say it's not that bad really.

No way, I am only trying to explain how map layout and good optimisation work together. If you have aim or MSN, PM it to me. I am working on you map finishing the bottom.

I also have idea for the top part.

In no way should you even think scapping some nice map like this one. Optimisation is hard to understand at first and yes it does get to you when trying to understand it. but there is always a work around and ppl to help out ;)

as I said in previous reply you brush work is fine. Working with areaportals is hard at first because of the error . but when you find how to use the leak file and why they leak it's get easier to work with them

Thank god for that it would have been such a shame to scrap it after all the time and effort that went into it ;)

I am about to leave home and wont be back till around 14:00GMT tomorrow so I will pm you my MSN addy and catch up with you tomorrow mate.

Once again thanks for your time and effort.