A new version has been released.

There are LOADS of changes that I have made and I am sure you agree this is much, much better than beta 1.

EVERYTHING has changed, including the layout, minimap, textures, etc!

RELEASE INFORMATION, DOWNLOAD, SCREENSHOTS:

http://www.dodnetwork.com/el/sub10 (http://www.dodnetwork.com/el/sub10)

Thankyou.

Servers playing it right now (http://game-monitor.com/?search=dod_subterrainia_b2&type=map&game=dod2&country=all)

I cant wait until I can play this on a server with a lot of players on it.

I will run a playtest for you on our Pub server Thursday evening at 6pm Eastern time.

Much better. Graffiti is almost all gone. That doorway to the left side of the sub no longer kills. Lots of extra props to hide behind.

posting a problem with hanging lights. wall mounted light do not have the same problem

http://img351.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dodsubterrainialights9ak.jpg

Originally posted by Wile E Coyote
Much better. Graffiti is almost all gone. That doorway to the left side of the sub no longer kills. Lots of extra props to hide behind.

posting a problem with hanging lights. wall mounted light do not have the same problem

http://img351.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dodsubterrainialights9ak.jpg

Thanks, I noticed that too. I think its because the sprite entity to make the glow is in the bulb and somehow causing that problem. I'll look into it. The next release will probably be final so I'll make sure its sorted.

i love the HDR in the low tunnels. looks kinda funny when your running throught and because the lights are so low the hdr gets real bright then all of a sudden real dark. awsome job. (may not be hdr, may just be the glow, but it still looks sweet)

Any reports of this version crashing? I just ran it, and it crashed the server. I'll try it again and get back to you.

i agree w/ wiley

the use of the propoganda fits much nicer.
Random flag cap should be much better too.

Keep up the good work.. very cool map so far :cool:

Hmm, I've been in quite a lot of servers playing this all day and generally I've found the Allies/Axis win ratio to be equal on all of them.

I do, however, get the feeling that there is still bias towards the Axis team. I've opened more routes for the allies, as well as made it easier to get on the U-Boat and blocked vis in the U-Boat pen but I feel it still needs some more Vis Blocking.

I'm going to add a few more things for the allies to hide behind in the U-Boat pen getting to the sub.

I played on the IE server earlier and it was extended 7 times for 30 minutes each which I was pleased to see. It was great fun with 32 players as well and the majority enjoyed the challenge.

I'll see if I can work on more bits for beta 3 and hopefully it will be the final version!

Map was still too difficult for Allies with the limited pathways. There may be 4 approaches, but the low ceiling all but eliminates the catwalk from contention. The other 3 entrances to the Sub pen are all in the same field of vision for the Axis.

The additional capzone is nice, but I feel it needs another entrance. In general, I feel that the old pathways that have been blocked off could still be beneficial to the gameplay.

From what I've found, the Axis pretty much ignore the 2nd capzone after the opening attack, as it's simply too far to run from spawn just to enter a horseshoed bottleneck. It's not worth defending with the current set-up.

People still predominantly camp the same areas, so we're going to continue running the first beta for now, as it at least doesn't crash.

All in all, this version is different, but I don't think it's better.

Keep in mind though, that the ambience and thought put into the map are excellent to say the least. It will be a great map, but it needs more variety for the Allies.

I discovered in some servers that Axis got to 2nd flag quickly and setup defense in there straight away. As soon as this happened the whole game evolved round the 2nd flag, for 3 rounds running. The first and 3rd were capped no problem.

I've added more objects for the allies to get behind running to the water/U-Boat. I've placed these really carefully so that allies have more of a chance.

Another thing you might notice is that when an MG is on top of the crane, he cannot shoot towards the far end of the large tunnel as his cone of fire is too spread out by then. Snipers can take them out easily!

I've also shortened the fence on the catwalk where it cuts off so Allies can get round and into the water easier.

Can you post your server log just before it restarts please so I can take a look at any possible causes of it crashing?

Yeah, I'm actually glad that the Axis stayed away from the 2nd, as the limited amount of pathways to it would make it extremely difficult for the Allies to get it once the Axis laid claim to it.

I'm anxious to see your latest improvements.


EDIT: One player remarked that the overhead vents aren't a positive factor in the gameplay. Either noobs run up there and do nothing to help the team, or the Axis use it to flank the Allied rear. The Allies have no real use for it, with the exception of flanking the very 1st flag. We request that another route be added that grants direct access to the 2nd flag and/or the sub pen.

Originally posted by Bocasean
Yeah, I'm actually glad that the Axis stayed away from the 2nd, as the limited amount of pathways to it would make it extremely difficult for the Allies to get it once the Axis laid claim to it.

I'm anxious to see your latest improvements.


EDIT: One player remarked that the overhead vents aren't a positive factor in the gameplay. Either noobs run up there and do nothing to help the team, or the Axis use it to flank the Allied rear. The Allies have no real use for it, with the exception of flanking the very 1st flag. We request that another route be added that grants direct access to the 2nd flag and/or the sub pen.

I've found the overhead vents are extremely useful for getting to the U-Boat flag as a first cap as not many Axis will go up there when they first spawn.

I've also noticed the first couple of times the map runs that allies don't really use the vents, but when they wise up a bit to the map route they get used a lot!

I've seen some really great fights going on up there! Its like the sewers in Kalt. They were never really used the first few times people played the map, but now they are frequently.

After seeing the situation when Axis get to 2nd flag first, what I've noticed is theres a couple of spots where Axis can make serious defense with MG's. I plan on changing this with some more vis blocking by the entrances to the 2nd flag so Allies can get in a little easier.

The difference is that the sewers in Kalt actually lead to important flag areas. The vents in SubT lead you to the exact same position that you can get to quicker down below, and without giving you any increased tactical advantage: You still have to go through the same, straight-ahead doorway into the sub pen.

I'm not saying that the vents aren't a good idea; I'm saying that in their current alignment, they aren't a tactical advantage for the Allies like they could be.

I've got those server logs that you requested and I'll try to figure out some way to get them over to you. I tried to find the cause, but I don't know what I'm looking for. Sorry, bro.

Thanks. I don't want the vents leading straight to flags otherwise Allies will have the advantage. As it stands, Axis only have a little advantage over Allies as has became evident from playing on a variety of servers. This should be fixed in the final release with more places for the Allies to hide behind on their way to the flag.

It shouldn't be easy for the allies to cap! They have 10 minutes and the Axis can't re-cap the flags. Its the purpose of an objective map!

Thanks for getting the logs, I'll try and make sense of them. I think its something to do with the cube maps not building properly and interfering with the old ones as my computer crashed the first time I ran the buildcubemaps.

Remember that the first time Axis spawn they spawn at the vent entrances. So if Allies went through vents on the first round theres a high possibility they can get to the last flag as a first cap.

I noticed many Allies were using the vents in some servers for this purpose. While Axis are too busy running up to first/second flags Allies drop down behind the Axis and can either out-flank the Axis or go for the U-Boat cap!

I thought the same as you did when first trying this out on a couple of servers, but after playing with a load of people after a while I learnt how they were using the walk ways, what tactics they were using and where they are defending the most, etc. From this I've identified the weaknesses and hopefully the final version will be a lot more balanced and enjoyable for both teams!

I agree with what you're saying, but personally, I wouldn't make the next version the final. I would wait to see how the new changes are embraced.

Everything you're saying about the balance of the map is based on comparisons of new servers with new players. We've played the map for HOURS on our server over the past week, and I'm telling you, it's nye impossible for the Allies to win with the current set up if the teams are close to equal in skill.

The more people play the map, I do believe the imbalance will become more evident. I'm only commenting so much on this map because it is one of the best out there in regards to unique gameplay. It's well worth the effort, IMO.

The next public release will be final. I'll keep the beta's enclosed testing with servers such as yourselves.

I know the IE server run the map pretty much all the time and I often see the guys from that server on other servers running the map as well. I've been keeping an eye on this pretty much 24/7!

I'm confident that the change I'm making will improve gameplay for the Allies a lot but still keep a challenge.

If I have a new version compiled by tonight, do you think you can run a playtest on your server with your clan sometime soon please and let me know the feedback. I'll be interested to see how well it runs now I've made these minor but vital changes!

Thanks

I think you're being a bit hasty. I know you've been working on this since 1.2 and are eager to finally release it, but take you're time. Regardless of how you feel, Bocasean is right; if you have to teams of equal skill, it's pretty impossible for Allies to win. Afterall, whats to stop all Axis players from just camping the U-Boat, if they only need 1 flag left to win? Now imagine if a team decides to do that on a 32 player server, you have mg's on the cranes, snipers everywhere, and people on the U-Boat and people in the water patrolling around the U-Boat, basically a team of 16 campers with the spawn right behind them, the Allies would never win. Axis need some incentive to get out of spawn area and go attacking.

IMO the Axis should have a short distance to travel to get to the U-Boat, and not spawn right behind it. I still think it'd be cool to have a simple sewer system that goes from the kitchen to the U-Boat pen water so the Allies have a more stealthy way to get on the U-Boat. This would also encourage more fighting in the side tunnels, both for Allies to get into the kitchen and for Axis to stop them from using the sewer. Yes, I know about the ventilation shafts, but the closest one drops you in a room next to the U-Boat, not in the actual U-Boat area, and you still have to "run the guantlet" to get there.

Don't rush this map, I'd really like to see it on my server rotation and many others, but in it's current state that probably won't happen.

Exactly, with both flags capped Axis focus on the last "U-Boat" flag and camp it to hell. I've noticed that after playing a few times, Allies have wisened up to this and chosen to target most their team-mates to the U-Boat flag first when the Axis are too busy trying to get to first and second.

With the new version most the fence has gone now meaning Allies can drop into the water. Once Allies are in the water, its easy to get on to the U-Boat now and take it. I usually find its fun to drop in the water and swim to the back and wait till the Axis "think im dead" then swim back and take the flag. Its surprisingly very easy to cap that flag. The MG's are usually on the crane or on the U-Boat fencing. When you get on to the U-Boat they can't see you and with those gun barrels on there you can take them out really easily and shoot the Axis trying to jump on to the U-Boat whilst you cap the flag.

I don't want to put another Ventilation exit in the U-Boat pen as I feel it would ruin the challenge. I think that with enough vis-blocks it would be easy enough for allies to get on the U-Boat and take it. In the latest version, I've made it even easier still for the allies to get on the U-Boat from the water.

If this doesn't sort things in the playtests I'm going to run I will put a sewer from the kitchen to the U-Boat pen as you suggested. It will only be a small sewer though and you will have to crouch to get through it. The sewer exit will drop down behind the U-Boat and axis won't be able to get in the sewer. (I really don't like close combat like that where you have little ability to run away!) - Thats IF the playtests show its still too difficult for allies to get that last flag. Maybe they will, you're probably right but I hope the vis blocking method will work for now.

:)

I've got a new 100 Tickrate server that I'm going to test out tonight, and I'll gladly run beta3 if you'd like.

I also agree with Def. Not only in taking your time with the final release, but also with the possibility of pushing the Axis spawn back (even a longer tunnel would be enough) and the possibility of a flanking entrance into the sub pen. I've thought about the possibility of a "well" somewhere deep within the compound, so that it's somewhat difficult for the Allies to reach it in the first place. But if they do reach it, then the well would flow under the map all the way into the sub pen, perhaps underneath the steel grating area of the water. So it would be difficult to reach, they'd have to move fast underwater so as not to drown, but they'd come up in the pen and be somewhat hard to see. Maybe the kitchen would make a good entrance for the well....it would give the Axis more reason to not camp, too.

I assure you....I was yelling at my whole team to NOT cap the 1st and 2nd flags, but we still couldn't cap the sub area. I mean, we DID cap it twice, but it was usually before the server filled up or just after some good players left the Axis. I'm not saying that it's unplayable....I just feel that a few Allied-slanted tweaks would go a long way. But we did try to cap the sub first and it was ineffective against a smart Axis team.

I will limit the Axis MG to 1 on the cfg and see if it helps.

As for the testing of b3, how does 7pm Eastern sound at 8.9.3.197:27015?

Cool deal El capitan, dl link stays the same for new version.

Download mirror: http://www.landofozz.net/pafiledb/pafiledb.php?action=download&id=291


--Ozz

I changed to this map when my server was full and amazingly enough, the server didn't empty when I changed it to a custom. We did 8 on 8 and it was a blast!
I used stripper to change the first flag to 2 man after allies could never get it capped, and they all agreed that 2 was best. Just passing that along. Your own playtesting results may differ. And we only did like 6 games, you can only tell after lots and lots of samples. :(
Another variable is it takes people a few rounds to "get it", and know where to go at the start of the round to prevent those quick caps. Maybe on a server filled with people that get it, 3man cap is appropriate. Ahh if only it could be set to a percentage of the team instead of a number.

One frustrating thing is if the allies team sucks so bad they get pinned back to the spawn. If that kill zone could be extended to maybe that first ladder that could prevent total humiliation to the point of people just trying the map thinking it sucks because they just got owned so severely for minutes on end.

Another minor thing, you can get stuck on the sub. I took a quick video (http://yr.rat.org/temp/dod_subterrainia_b2-stuck1.avi) so you can easily see where. I couldn't duplicate it myself, but there it is.

Thanks Ratty. I'll have a look and see if I can work out why its doing that!

Updates coming for next version:

- More/better placed objects for Allies to hide behind approaching Cap zones

- Well from kitchen to under the grating in the U-Boat pen (well comes out IN the water)

- Add counting system where the map will count the number of players and set the cap zone for the first objective accordingly:

* If there are up to 14 players on the server, the first
objective will take 8 seconds to capture and be a 2
man cap

* If there are over 14 players on the server, the first
objective will take 10 seconds to capture and be a 3
man cap

- Reduced U-Boat cap time from 5 seconds to 4 seconds

- Extended Allied spawn "kill-zone" slightly up to the radio room entrance and placed "no entry signs" where the kill zone starts.

Originally posted by El Capitan

- Add counting system where the map will count the number of players and set the cap zone for the first objective accordingly:


Do tell. How is this accomplished?

Changes sound sexcellent!

Update: Cap areas WONT change depending on player numbers

I had it so there were two capture areas over the top of each other. When its under 14 a logic_case would disable one of them accordingly and enable the other. When over 14, it would change them accordingly too.

EVERYTHING works fine with it, except for one problem yet again thanks to the wonderful mapping support dod source has (not!)

You CANNOT enable/disable capture zones.

This has really annoyed me, virtually every entity I've gone to use has some sort of problem with it. I really hope the dev team get round to looking into this!

Sorry about this, I know a lot of you wanted it to be 2 man for smaller numbers. I'm going to keep it a 3 man, 10 second cap. You need at least 3 men in there to cover all entrances anyway!

Sounds like some good and interesting changes, will server crashes also be addressed?

Originally posted by Defpotec
Sounds like some good and interesting changes, will server crashes also be addressed?

Of course :) I've decided I'm going to release a beta 3 before the final. I want to get gameplay just right before it goes final.

Great looking, fun fun map.

You could do what the dod_risk guy did and release 2 versions, one for small number of players and another for lots of people. Then if a mod impliments a conditional mapcycle where it takes into account the number of players on, server admins can have it change to the appropriate map depending on the number of players.
Of course its way sweeter to have it change the capture times dynamicaly, but if thats impossible, what else can you do. Those of us that are savvy enough can edit entities anyway, so no big deal. Just say this map is for lots of players only and that's that.

Oh and another fun thing about this map is the air vents, all I have to say is watch your back! :D

clip 1 (http://yr.rat.org/videos/ratty-shoveller2.avi)
clip 2 (http://yr.rat.org/videos/ratty-shoveller3.avi)

Oh and take your time with the betas, testing this thing is pretty fun for us. :) Let the masses gnaw on it a bit so they can find those wacky glitches you'd never think of so you dont have to release a final_really_this_time version to put on some critical fix.
Cant wait to try b3.

Oh and about that guy getting stuck, maybe theres some factor with lag and the prediction stuff doing that, and any testing on a lan wouldn't show. Just a thought. For the life of me I could not get myself stuck there.

LMAO ratty I loved those clips!