Okay before anyone reads on I want to say a few things, disclaiming some of my opinions. Firstly I feel it prudent to state that I have played dod since the early days, I have not only played dod but I have reached the heights of skill in competitive play. A lot of people like to believe clanners are elitist purely because we enjoy organised play against players that are on the same skill level as us. Having a competitive nature doesn't make anyone elitist. The reason for me making this post is that I have seen dod in it's darkest times, when there wasn't much more than clanplay.... The one thing i've learnt is that the competitive community of dod can carry it through anything, yes this might sound elitist but it's simply something i've observed in my experience with this game.

That being said i'd like to get to the point, dod:s has a lot of problems, to me it's one of the worst games i've played and hence why I haven't played it since the day it came out. The game may eventually be reasonable - if anyone remembers back to v1.0 it was terribad, eventually we got to v1.3 which was good. I think this may become the case with dod:s, after a few updates it might get better.

It would be really good to see some mappers step up and make some good maps for leagueplay, my rational here is that if the competitive community is ocupied then dod wont die out so easy.

wow so after ive said all that i would like to point something else which will really speak for itself i believe, i wont write and essay with these.

Compare these two images
one (http://mapmonger.com/img/harrytown.jpg) two (http://mapmonger.com/img/rr.jpg)

As you may have noticed they are overviews of dod_harrington & dod_railroad, the point of this is to point out the painfully simple formula that both these maps share. Anyone who has played them both will know the maps are different but it is this base similarity which makes these maps successful for clanplay. People might also notice anzio is similar also, bit more angles :P

What im trying to say here is, map for competitive play, pub play follows as these 2 maps are the 2 most liked custom warmaps ever made. BTW im not saying copy the layout, im saying use the similarities shared by both these maps to come up with something that will be good for leagueplay.

I totally agree. I think one of the biggest problems with source is the fact the maps released with it are 1.3 maps (excepting argentan). The source gameplay doesn't fit, the maps aren't really big enough for all classes to be balanced.

The reason the ported maps were so popular in 1.3 is that they are pretty short range which means that autos could compete with powerful rifles. Now rifles really need the distance.

I'm going to remake (am doing) my 'war map' for source, but enlarge it.

skdr has been pressuring me to port sherman but my heart just aint in it, now if i had a dash of creativity in me i would create something new for leagueplay.

oneday....

*edit*
Something which I forgot to add in also is that Counter-Strike competitive has 4 main maps - d2,inf,train & nuke. With the exception od nuke these maps are all exactly the same, people just dont realise it.

I think in reality competitive play will always favor 1 map/map style per game. dod is anzio/harry/rr style.

Travis I'll tell you what, if the competitive clanners would spend half the amount of time they spend complaining on these forums trying to actually make a map and be part of the change they so want to see happen, then maybe you wouldn't feel that way about dods.

I have the utmost respect for the dod:c guys who actually stood up, and say "why not" as opposed to "this sucks". It's very easy to complain and claim dod is coming to an end, but a lot harder to actually make something for everyone to enjoy.

It's not a personal attack towards you Travis, but at the same time you could lead the way if you're still "a voice that's heard" among the competitive community.

If making a railroad or harrington is so simple then there's no doubt we'll see something similar pretty soon. Meanwhile I'd much rather encourage each mapper to discover this new engine according to their own imagination and what they individually want to see played.

Also as a side note, I was pretty bored with dods, but I've found a renewed interest since december's patch and I've been enjoying the game quite a bit. You shouldn't diss it altogether.

sigh, that's just the attitude that promotes seperation between the general dod playing public and competitive players.

You want to know why we are here "complaining"? You obviously are without a clue so i'll fill you in, the people that have come to these forums realised nothing in dod is decided on the gotfrag forums. It's a sad fact but it's the way it is, if you want to talk about us here complaining then i'll tell you what, most of the users on this forum are your casual pub player and you outnumber us clanners by a huge margin on these forums, so who is really doing more of this "complaining"? The popular opinion that competitive players have nothing to offer sickens me.

This thread NEVER set out to tell people how to map, the fact you even stated "I'd much rather encourage each mapper to discover this new engine according to their own imagination and what they individually want to see played." is a true testament to how far you missed the point. I'm all for creativity, a good variety of maps, never did i discourage these things.

This thread is promote maps for leagueplay using an obvious formula, your too blind to see it thats fine, next time dont turn it into a flamewar.

I think it wasn´t intended as starting a flamewar but rather a misunderstanding between you Travis and Furyo. And just like Kid-A I share Travis´opinion but considering Argentan you can apply the same scheme as for Harrington and RR. Btw has anyone succeded in contacting the mapper of Harrington yet?

Zyndrome and myself were thinking of collaborating on such a project and yes we did make contact, not sure what is happening just yet. I myself have to get some other projects done first, 10maps and none released.

I keep telling myself 1 at a time but then i get bored with one and move on :E

cursed

Wow then I whish you best luck for your work. You could i.e. release one map per DoD:S update ;)

Travis, this isn't a flamewar. You're the one that started to get personal. Read your original post again, it sounds like you're promoting just one type of maps, the likes of railroad and harrington. When you say " map for leagueplay, pub play follows" it sounds just like this, and my reply to this is: Let competitive clanners map themselves and they can make the maps they want to play. To each his own so to speak.

And don't tell me you really think dods should be made based on what gotfrag users say. How can these guys be representative of the millions of gamers any gaming company tries to get? Sure they can have their say in things, and they actually do when they post some well thought out threads. The beta testers forums had guys like Smeltn and Clone Rizzo in for a reason.

The way I see it, too many pissed off (whether for a good reason or not) forum members have been at each other's throat and for no good reason at all.

I have nothing against competitive players, I don't see what in my first reply could make you draw these quick conclusions about me. I just said that they should start chippin in if they really want something different. Because like it or not, your average pubber who wants to dabble with Hammer is not going to make a railroad from the get go. It takes vision, the kind only competitive gamers will have.

I was just reading a thread on the CAL forums about which maps to play for the first league. Guess what, they're all unanimous, Salerno is the worst map because it's "too cluttered with useless junk". Well I'm not the only one to think it's actually the best map to have come out so far, and by far. See where I'm getting at? The differences of preferences varies too greatly for one pub map to claim to be used for leagueplay, and we agree on this point, but my point is that it's the league players that should make their own league maps.

Bottom line, if you really want to help the game and help yourself appreciate the game more, you'll use your leverage to promote new maps from within the competitive players community. You want something done right, you gotta do it yourself applies here. If more competitive players followed the dod:c guys example, they would have all the fun they want. After all Valve provides the tools for everyone to use.

Travis, this isn't a flamewar. You're the one that started to get personal. Read your original post again, it sounds like you're promoting just one type of maps, the likes of railroad and harrington. When you say " map for leagueplay, pub play follows" it sounds just like this, and my reply to this is: Let competitive clanners map themselves and they can make the maps they want to play. To each his own so to speak.

Why do you think I map?

And don't tell me you really think dods should be made based on what gotfrag users say. How can these guys be representative of the millions of gamers any gaming company tries to get? Sure they can have their say in things, and they actually do when they post some well thought out threads. The beta testers forums had guys like Smeltn and Clone Rizzo in for a reason.

the reason i said gotfrag is because gotfrag is the home of esports, gotfrag users are dod players too have the same right to post an opinion about dod that you do. clanplay has carried this game thru hard times wether you like to admit that simple fact or not. perhaps you havent been around very long. Valve want to appeal to your average gamer because that = sales, thats the bottom line, dont think dod is produced for any other reason than for valve to make money.

I was just reading a thread on the CAL forums about which maps to play for the first league. Guess what, they're all unanimous, Salerno is the worst map because it's "too cluttered with useless junk". Well I'm not the only one to think it's actually the best map to have come out so far, and by far. See where I'm getting at? The differences of preferences varies too greatly for one pub map to claim to be used for leagueplay, and we agree on this point, but my point is that it's the league players that should make their own league maps.

any decent competitive player like myself values gameplay over looks, as a mapper and a competitive player its hard to find the balance but at least i can. clanplay in general has a bias towards gameplay, afterall looks dont make a game.

Bottom line, if you really want to help the game and help yourself appreciate the game more, you'll use your leverage to promote new maps from within the competitive players community. You want something done right, you gotta do it yourself applies here. If more competitive players followed the dod:c guys example, they would have all the fun they want. After all Valve provides the tools for everyone to use.

none of this applies.

Well this thread went down the pan quickly. I'll have to admit I see Fuyro did nothing wrong and Travis must have got the wrong end of the stick as I see no reason to go off on one.

I still feel that the clanners should drop the "we carried dod though its darkest times" line. It makes it sound like the clan community did it single handely, now there wasn't really any dark times pre-source, 1.0 was a bit messy but it got fixed.

Source however is a new game and by if carrying it through its dark times you mean switching to DoD:C for a while then sure, you did. But the public still was there plugging away.

Anyho, got distracted. Yes you need to map to its strengths, but as always its the clan community saying "give us good maps to play" and very rarely do they actually go out and make them. To me, the clanners favourite maps are boring because they are equal. I love a challenge.

That said, Im not mapping for DoDS anymore so my viewpoint is sort of obsolete.

:-O why not ginger??? :-(

Originally posted by travis
Why do you think I map?

Like I said in my first reply and then in the second, it's not a personal attack against you and this isn't a flamewar. Yes you do map for these reasons, and I'm thankful for that, but what about the others that could just as easily pick up the SDK and start something themselves?

Originally posted by travis
the reason i said gotfrag is because gotfrag is the home of esports, gotfrag users are dod players too have the same right to post an opinion about dod that you do. clanplay has carried this game thru hard times wether you like to admit that simple fact or not. perhaps you havent been around very long. Valve want to appeal to your average gamer because that = sales, thats the bottom line, dont think dod is produced for any other reason than for valve to make money.

I've been around since beta 2 if you care to know but I really think this doesn't have anything to do with the topic. Like I said above, yes they can have their say, like any of us. I don't see how that's not clear in my previous reply.

Who said I thought Valve wasn't in it for the money? Of course they are, but to think Valve is making a game with the sole intention of making money is a bit simple. Sure they do, but is it so hard to believe they may actually want their game to be something else than a milk cow? I agree that Valve should please the average gamer because that's what the majority of players are, and again, if the competitive players don't like that, so be it, they can start their own mod (like the dod:c guys, as stated in my previous replies).

Originally posted by travis
any decent competitive player like myself values gameplay over looks, as a mapper and a competitive player its hard to find the balance but at least i can. clanplay in general has a bias towards gameplay, afterall looks dont make a game.


Any player that's gonna put some time into the game will value gameplay. It doesn't have anything to do with being competitive or not, a great looking game with no gameplay at all will not please anybody. Good looks attracts players, gameplay keeps them. I'm sure you can find YOUR OWN balance, which in turn may very well please others, but will displease others. Which just goes back to my previous point: to each his own, the competitive players should start mapping their own dream maps for them to be really happy playing.

Originally posted by travis
None of this applies.

I think it all does actually. Valve made the tools and gave them to us for us to have fun. Tons of mods have come out, let alone maps, which proves that it doesn't take an Einstein to make either, it just takes dedication. And of all players I would think competitive players are the most dedicated to their games, so it shouldn't be too difficult to muster some mapping team.

It's a difficult issue to debate on, and I don't think Furyo's intent was to turn this into a flame war at all, just another case of mis-communication which can occur quite easily over text on the net.

Personally, my view is that saying "map this way" will have no effect at all on mappers. Leading by example, may do, however.

Starting a map is a big project to take on, and finishing it even bigger! Therefore, the mapper wants his map to be popular, and he wants lots of people to play it! Thats what every mapper wants, and unfortunately for the clanners....pub play is the most popular.

Not saying that everyone should map for pub play either; theres some very good clan maps out there that have also been popular for the clanning community. The problem that lies, however, is the fact that most of the mappers on here that are capable of mapping to the requirements of the clanner have a lot of experience in the community, and won't necessarily change their style of mapping just to suit the clanners. That is, unless they want to; and some mappers have done. I'm just not sure that making a post on here saying dod:s has issues that mappers need to build upon is the right way to go about it.

I think that, if you want to see more clan-based maps released, the best way to go about it would be to contact mappers individually and work with them on a project, and that means working on the map itself too. By showing your committed, I believe mappers may show more of an interest. Simply saying "make us more clan maps" won't have much of an effect. Thats a problem which I find lies within the clanners community a lot; many clanners underestimate just how difficult it is to create a good map.

I'm not saying this is everyone either, especially you travis...I'm actually regard myself as a clanner myself, although I enjoy pub play as well.

Saying DoD:S has "issues" is also, what I believe to be a very weak statement. It doesn't have issues, it has features which don't appeal to everyone. These features appeal to the majority, and unfortunately people have to move with the times whenever DoD is updated. I've been playing since the first beta, and with every major update seen players complain, leave and enter the community. DoD has always become stronger and more popular with every release, dispite those saying "x features sucks!"

Sorry, I'm really hungover so my post may be a bit dis-jointed, but I feel I needed to contribute to the thread!

To each his own !

I personally will avoid making linear maps at all costs. I absolutely hate them and find them painfully boring.

my 2 cents

:)

No.

I'll map how I want.
-snip- Not even going to start.

To me, the clanners favourite maps are boring because they are equal. I love a challenge.
I heartily agree to the point I feel like clapping.
I personally will avoid making linear maps at all costs. I absolutely hate them and find them painfully boring.
And that is why your map Sora is a work of art, Ultra. It also happens to be fun.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Give me both, dammit.

Wow this went bad really fast.

The 3 lane layout worked great for 1.3, however I don't think it transfered over to source. I think source's gameplay favors maps that have 2 lanes like anzio and chemille. It's rather silly to come in and say "Lets make more maps like good 1.3 maps" when obviously gameplay has changed enough to the point where the 1.3 formula simply won't work. I think its better for mappers to go and experiment with what they think will work for gameplay and once that formula is found out we can do and try to duplicate what that mapper brought to the gameplay with the map.

couple of other things:

ultranew_b, either you don't know what people mean by "linear maps" or you haven't played railroad and harrington, both of those maps are far from being linear.

Ginger Lord How are balanced maps boring? If anything they're more fun because they provide you with a broader range of gameplay depending on which team is winning at the time. Whereas in unbalanced maps you are generally stuck in one mode depending on which team you pick.

Originally posted by eddi.
Ginger Lord How are balanced maps boring? If anything they're more fun because they provide you with a broader range of gameplay depending on which team is winning at the time. Whereas in unbalanced maps you are generally stuck in one mode depending on which team you pick.

I don't find it fun knowing exactly where the enemy will be hiding each time I go there. Anzio for example there are so many places you can just chuck a grenade and be guaranteed a kill because its balanced.

With maps that have some sort of weighting to one side when you die and come back the fighting will invariable have moved forward or back, compared to Anzio where you literally just run around in a circle shooting people in the back.

dont think dod is produced for any other reason than for valve to make money.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but I hardly think it is fair to say those involved with the creation of Day of Defeat Source are motivated purely by money. Take this from a fellow Travis, when I say that have been working on Day of Defeat in some form or another since I was in Grade 9 (21 now, turning 22 this year), and you would be mistaken to assume I would still be working on DoD if it was not for dedication to the game's fans, and for my passion to see it become the best game it can be.

My hope is that we can address the concerns fans currently have with Day of Defeat Source (yours included) in the coming versions. However, your statement saying that you have not played the game since the day it was released, makes me think you have not even gave the game chance it deserves, especially when considering the hard work and dedication of all those involved.

Note: This is not an attack on you Travis, and I hope you did not perceive it in that way.

I find this pretty amusing.

You title the thread "map to the strengths of DoD:S" (or thereabouts) then basically say what that means is making maps for leagues.

Unfortunately, like it or not, the narrowly defined league style of play that most leagues use works even less effeciently for DoD:S than it did for DoD 1.3.

I think what's needed is for Valve to get the SDK wrapped up, get out a few more stock models, etc.... and then let individual talent/creativity go where it wants to.

I also find the argument that looks don't matter to be silly. If they didn't matter we'd all still be playing Quake or the first Wolfenstein. Its more like the graphics need to be "contemporary" quality-wise to want else it out there.

But, yes, in the end, gameplay is gonna carry a map, esp. a custom map, long term.

What I'd like to see is more mappers actually finish there projects rather than release 1 or 2 betas that are bug-filled and have serious gameplay issues then move onto another and another. IE, I'd take 1 quality map for a 100 so-so (actually worse in most cases) maps that only divvy up the player base and cause confusion for casual users.

The difficulty with making a clan-specific map rests with control and creativity. "Make it small, make it five flags, make it circular with entrances here and there", do not add detail, do not use physics props, use flags, make it run at 100fps for a low-end PC, we don't need a skybox, etc". I had Smeltn and his pals run through dod_anvil and give me his suggestions for making it into a clan-friendly map and I'll be damned if he didn't shut off almost all the houses and routes. Although I'm still planning on doing a version for him after I go final, the only reason I'd do so is because I respect him and how he went about asking me.

The one thing I think nobody gets are custom mappers consider themselves to be artsy-fartsy artists first and gamers second. We build maps because we like to, not because we have to. Some build maps for fun and enjoyment, others build them to get noticed so they can get a job. Building a map for a narrowly defined gamestyle and for a fewer number of players than the pubs is almost entirely counter intuitive to a custom mapper UNLESS they come from that community.

Two reasons why it's taking long to create maps: Mapping in Source is HARD...much harder than previously (it's a grown-up engine) and a custom mapper, when presented with new tools and a new game (SDK, DoDS) could spend years getting to learn the new engine well enough to put out a quality product. Look at the custom maps that have been released so far...of the 50-75 only three or four are worth a damn and of those...the one map worht a damn built on a clan-friendly architecture (salerno) has been widely panned by that community.

I'm not sure what the answer will be...but coming in here and dissing the game and then taking on a mapper who could very well put out a product you might like doesn't sound like a great approach.

Well if you create a map for league play based on feedback of the competitive community, you would have a almost guarentee that the map will be actually played.

I mean how many custom maps were released but no one is playing them. Webserverdownloads while connecting helps but i think the casual player is not interested in playing custom maps on a daily basis.

But when you have your map in a league rotation, people would play them on a regular basis. Not to mention, that a lot of servers are provided by clans. And if they would participate in leagues, they have to upload them.

I would be disappointed when i spent so many hours on a map but people only supporting it by watching screenshots and posting "looks nice" instead of playing it.

Travis made dod_cal_sherman2. When i remember correctly, he thinks the map isnt that good but it was/is still in a league rotations so it will be played even after months. How many custom maps do you know fit that profile?

I dont want to suggest to mappers, make maps only for league play, because it limits the creative process. But when you make them at least compatible, there is a chance its useful and it will be played. That increases the popularity of the map. If that motivates the mapper of course.

Ironically enough, the only "tournament" I've every considered worth playing in, has been BFE.. the so called "Professional" gaming leagues are just a way to sell corporate products..

And frankly I found that BFE was glad to use any custom maps that fit the location for the various territories.. Was alot of fun, and also the reason I played alot of custom maps.. I also used to be a regular on the Custom Kettles (Which were nothing BUT custom maps)... The problem with custom maps right now on DoD:S is the Beta SDK, and the fact that people are still learning the engine, and how to work with it.. Some are very quick (and good) studies and have put out good or excellent maps.. Others need to learn more.. but atleast they're trying to give to the entire comunity.. Unfortunately so-called "Professional Gamers" (Translation.. People who like their computer more than real life), only want to see what's good for them, not for the community as a whole,atleast in general, there are always exceptions to every rule...

Frankly, to be honest, dod_donner and dod_argentan are the only official maps I even like for DoD:S, and I"m not sure how long argentan will stay in that list.. so far I enjoy it.. but it might get old.. Anvil, Salerno, and a few other customs however have been a blast to play and I specifically look for servers runing them...

I think this is a very difficult subject... and not.

A mapper makes a map he wants to make. Not what somebody else wants him to make.

We can all go tell them what to do or what kind of maps we want to play. Chances are that that will have little effect on the creators (and it shouldn't). They can try to make a map to please certain people (or just as much people as possible), but that doen't mean they will actually succeed. Everybody's opinion is different and we all like different maps (and thank God we do).

DOD:S is here to stay. No doubt in my mind about that.
Off course there are a lot of bad custom maps. What did y'all expect... that we would have hundreds of nearly perfect custom maps only a few months after the release of the game and even before the official SDK ? I think not.
Be patient and this will be one great game with lots of beautiful maps that have marvellous gameplay. We're just not there yet... but we're heading in the right direction !

P.S. I only have been playing DOD for a year and a half now, so I invite everyone to go and have a rant about how my opinion doesn't matter. You know what? It probably doesn't ! :D