i dont know about anyone else, but i really hate gimmick maps like the ones that plague the cs 1.6 servers and consist of bland textures and have some sort of bizzarre twist and took the mapper about 1 day to complete start to finish.

I notice that maps like these get WAAAY to much attention on the DODS servers now. It really makes me mad when i waste my time accidently downloaing a map that has a unique name and then turns out to be another spam map.

I know i must not bethe only one that feels this way since the people here are taking time to create gorgeous looking maps. there's a lot of quality maps on these forums and i can't wait for them to come out and i hope that they make some of these other disgusting displays dissappear.

if you have a server running these spam maps, could you do us all a favor and take them off?

I think people are just starved for new maps to play. Once Valve releases a few new maps and more high quality custom maps are released, I think (hope) we'll see that the gimmick maps will more or less disappear.

Give me an example, Foxtrot. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding a gimmick (admittedly, I don't play a lot of CSS, and when I do, I play with all of the other old CS farts in de_dust.)

Well, the truth of the matter is look. Someone can create a beautiful map, but no one plays it, while on the other hand some one makes block buildings places sandbags, and some rough displacements, and people LOVE IT. The reason for this is simply, gameplay.

A mapper can spend many months creating a historically accurate map that looks very realistic, but the gamplay just sucks. Yeah, great eye candy but what else?

Now the blocky map looks ugly but to the gamer, its just what he wants. Choke points, strategic positions, alley ways, etc. Everything perfect for gameplay. Its just what the gamer wants. Something that is not laggy and has smooth gameplay.

For me, that is what my feeling is on dod_anzio. HUGE detail, historically accurate, just plain beautiful. But laggy as hell, and to me, not my cup of tea when it comes to gameplay. Too many places to die from.

Just my point of view.

Originally posted by Insta
I think people are just starved for new maps to play. Once Valve releases a few new maps and more high quality custom maps are released, I think (hope) we'll see that the gimmick maps will more or less disappear.

Yeah absolutely, that and also with the recent ease of map creation for dod:s with thanks to the beta SDK a lot more people are going to be mapping. I remember playing a custom map server and all the maps were terribad.

I myself am working on a map, I know of others who are also, all serious.

Originally posted by TheMiede
Well, the truth of the matter is look. Someone can create a beautiful map, but no one plays it, while on the other hand some one makes block buildings places sandbags, and some rough displacements, and people LOVE IT. The reason for this is simply, gameplay.

Name one custom map where "everyone loves it" can be accurately proven. The most servers I've seen a custom map being played on was 30-40 total and of those 10-15 had players. The vast majority of custom maps are played on 10-15 servers at any one time max with players on 3-5. That hardly proves "everyone loves it". If the DoD team put out a "simple" design map there would be a few people who would love them and a entire horde of others...to include the press and the magazines...who would rip them to pieces over it.

Of all the custom maps, in all the years I've been playing DOD, only two or three could fit a general classification of being both widely played and having critical acceptance among the general population and those were dod_railroad and dod_harrington. There were other noteable exceptions but those two stood out. At the time neither were considered simple maps of "block" architecture...they both were of close consistency to the official maps of the time. And...there's not a single custom map out there today of simple design that's "loved".

It seems to me your argument about "eye candy" is really just a code word argument about your feelings about dod source in general. This is a lot like how "intelligent" design folks argue their points to deflect you from their intent. Simple maps will not cure DoD of the issues that have left many of you disatisfied...code changes to weapons accuracy will...but not map design.

Amen Fuzzdad. You can love a map, but what good will it do if you can't stand the game?

I rather like "gimmick" maps. I played a map the other day where each team was on a pirate ship and you had to try and destroy the other team's ship in order to be able to reach the flag on their ship easier. It had cannons you could hit +use on and they would fire to the other side, and it had sharks in the water that you could shoot. Yeah, it didn't look great but I had way more fun on that map than any other I've played in dod so far. I often frequent that Jiggly's Funhouse server (when I'm not temp banned for unknown reasons). They have small, simple maps that are much more fun than the stock maps. I can't play any of the stock maps in dod and actually have fun.

As for the OP, I understand your frustration that people who make "gimmick" maps have their maps played more, but you can't just assume since their maps don't look fancy that they didn't spend a lot of time on their map. They could have spent a lot of time thinking up a concept or tweaking routes etc. I don't really see any reason to reward maps just because they look nice. Essentially, people want to have fun, and if a map can provide that fun, it shouldn't really matter what it looks like.

I tend to believe that the more detail you put into the map, the more dynamic the gameplay within the map will be. There will be many sniper spots and ideal MG locations that dont become evident until the map has been played in a learned by the player. I just think that is so much better than what we've got now..

Gimmick maps are popular not just because they offer great gameplay, but because they're often a very quick download from the server. Whereas it took me almost 20 minutes to get dod_anvil from a "fast downloads" custom map server, it took only 2 minutes to get snow battlefield. A lot of players see a custom map playing on a server and think "thank god, a breath of fresh air", so they connect. If it takes too long to download the map, they cancel and go to a different server.

There is really no way to solve this problem that I can see. Players who are really into high-quality custom maps will probably download them from websites. The others will just play gimmick maps for, if nothing else, variety.

Well as a custom map server operator, I will explain what MY stance is on custom maps and quality.

A custom map has to be playable to x degree before it is 'worthy' of addition to my server. However, it is not always KNOWN how playable the map is until it is tried. A map can look ultra-great but if it plays for crap then it will get nixed, simply because noone wants to play it. Conversely, a crappy looking map that plays GREAT will earn life simply because players like playing it and don't care that it looks like hell. The mappers owe it to us to make the maps look like they belong in source and get away from the 2 dimensional thinking of dod 1.3.

Me personally- I hate the blocky dod 1.3ish looking maps because quite simply, we have moved on to an engine that is capable of SO MUCH and yet our mapping community is still focused on the old instead of the new. Map remakes, direct ports, etc are all bland because either a) the map looks like 1.3 or b) the 1.3 map was converted to use in source and is probably already overplayed as it is. There are a few exceptions to this rule, as seen in Fuzzdad's dod_anvil and Insta's dod_salerno (remake of Railroad) because neither are direct ports and neither LOOK like 1.3.

What I can't understand is why the dod mapping community is still inside this proverbial 'box' where they are still thinking of mapping in a 1.3 sense. This is source. Play HL2 and learn what the engine can do. The map itself can be SO interactive to the user yet the mappers are stuck on making their maps RELY on x # of players to play them to be any fun. Triggered sounds, booby traps, dynamic elements like planes or tanks are all absent in the current crop of maps coming out for Source - and it's simply a lack of creativity from the mappers that is causing it. I don't know if it's because the mappers feel like they need to rush out their maps to feed the hordes or because they don't have the attention span to fully develop their maps. Or it could simply be because they don't know HOW to incorporate such goodies into their maps on the technical level (not the creative level).

There are some exceptions to this.... look at Furyo's dod_dijon and admire it's sheer size -both horizontally and vertically- or wickit's dod_smallhill and see how simplicity, artwork and a smidge of interactivity can make maps a lot more fun to play because you are sidetracked looking at something or playing with something and BLAM you're shot in the back. No more 'direct path' crap, give us the level of intelligent play that dod deserves and help steer it away from the CounterStrike feeling that it has now!!

Problems so far have included Valve's delay in releasing a complete SDK, leaving mappers to fend for themselves until recently, and that STILL is a BETA SDK, not the real deal. Also, people like myself who could draw probably 10 maps in detail on paper, but don't have the time to crawl thru Hammer to develop them, much less deal with all the roadblocks that I've read about ever since DOD:S was released.... Also included in that is the game requirements- a lot of people can't afford that kind of hardware to PLAY dods, much less take time to contribute to it.

So for now, as a server op, I've been left to sift through the garbage and the diamonds as far as custom maps go, and it is quite annoying to see a crappy map get all kinds of attention when it belongs in dod 1.3. But as a server op, I've gotta worry about what players want more than what I want. I have to rely on the mappers of old getting into the Source mindset, and I realize that it's a big jump so miracles aren't going to happen. Hell, Valve's delay with dod_argentan should be a sign to the rest of you that Source maps simply are not that easy to develop and playtest. So why expect a miracle from someone who is NOT from valve trying to make a decent map for DoDS?

Ultimately, it's gonna rely on YOU, the DODS PLAYER to be WAY MORE CRITICAL and DEMAND BETTER MAPS FOR THE BETTER ENGINE. Hell, you could even help out by playtesting maps for the mappers to help them learn what does and what doesn't work or cut it in DoDS. It's what being part of a community is all about, GIVE and take-- emphasis on give. Help us help you.

So yeah, I have a couple of 'less-than-ideal' maps on my servers..... but it's a result of the community. I try to eliminate the older ones like dod_lerouge, which I only had on my server due to the lack of customs that were available at the time, but now it is gone, replaced by better playing maps like dod_tiger_source and dod_kalt_remakefinal -- But also by better looking maps like dod_anvil and dod_smallhill_b3 <-- you all need to help wickit make this a spectacular map because he is off to an awesome start here.

But variety is the key, so older maps like dod_narbeth_b2 are also still available on my servers..... The map plays nice, looks better than 1.3 -- but admittedly still needs some work. More importantly, it's NOT a straight path deathmatch like the oh-so-faded dod_flash and it's not an overplayed classic such as dod_anzio or dod_avalanche. They had their places on dod 1.3, and they should rest in peace there. Bringing them to dod source was a throwback to the old, and neither offer anything better over the old versions. Basic ports, simply to release a game that was rushed out from the get-go and now the 'old-school' dod community is left whining about custom maps and the lack thereof -- and the game has only been out 2 months.

It's up to you, people. Work with your mappers. Give them something to map for. Offer positive thoughts along with your negative ones or else you are just a part of the problem yourself.

I'd like to say thank you to all the mappers who ARE working on more detailed, better looking and better playing maps. Your hard work IS appreciated and I look forward to the more in-depth maps you are now able to create on this engine which has a lot of potential.

--Ozz

Well thanks for that novel Ozz ;) I do agree with your vision too. Mappers can't do it on their own.

But when you say that mappers don't add the "tricks", the "interactivity" of HL2, it isn't because they don't know how. I could make traps left and right. Would it be playable? No. the server lag in terms of physics calculations would be so enormous you wouldn't even see anything but a slideshow (in case of server based physics)

The physics one can add will be the odd barrel to shoot around, or the shop sign to shoot down. That's fine. But have 4-5 sets of tables with 8 chairs each, bottles and what not and call this a Bar in your street, then fill up a server and throw a nade. Forget it, major lag spike.

And even if it is playable, any sort of trap and physics construction could be blocked by the same old asshat, blocking the entire map for the rest of the players. Dod Source isn't Dod 1.3, but it's not HL2 single player either.

I didn't say all mappers, Furyo.... hehehehhe.....


And although I agree this isn't HL2 SP, it is the exact engine (with even more than what HL2 originally came with). On top of that, physics objects were NOT what I was referring to.

The shootable mortars.

The shootable tanks.

The shootable 88's <-- which wickit used

A simple one: doors

The birds on your map, dod_dijon. Just a nice touch.

A land mine.....

A building that collapses causing a change in the available paths for the player. (caused by 88 or mortar or tank fire)

Does anyone remember dod_nadefootball with the rocket launcher you could aim?? Use that to destroy an axis explosives depot to move forward on a map.



In other words, start thinking outside the box and develop a map to have a purpose other than ctf or deathmatch. These are some examples of what I mean. Our game deserves it.

But when you say that mappers don't add the "tricks", the "interactivity" of HL2, it isn't because they don't know how. I could make traps left and right. Would it be playable? No. the server lag in terms of physics calculations would be so enormous you wouldn't even see anything but a slideshow (in case of server based physics)

Amen brother!
We ran HL2DM servers as soon as the mutiplayer was released.
Deja Vu... 2 stock maps and a flood of fledgling customs followed.
Aproximately 10% of the customs were playable on 14 max slot servers. Some server ops successfully edited/ stripped the bsps and could get smoother game play with 16 players.
The biggest problem was all the interactive "stuff" on the map.
Lag overcame any possibility of fun.
The maps looked great but the playablility was just not there.

Avalanche, Donner and Anvil_r2c are proof that Source maps can look and play great. SmallHill_b3 is one of our server favourites. Its innovative , tough and fun.

We are all looking forward to the efforts of mappers as they acclimatize themselves to Source and reach that balance between style and substance.

Originally posted by FuzzDad
Name one custom map where "everyone loves it" can be accurately proven. The most servers I've seen a custom map being played on was 30-40 total and of those 10-15 had players. The vast majority of custom maps are played on 10-15 servers at any one time max with players on 3-5. That hardly proves "everyone loves it". If the DoD team put out a "simple" design map there would be a few people who would love them and a entire horde of others...to include the press and the magazines...who would rip them to pieces over it.

Of all the custom maps, in all the years I've been playing DOD, only two or three could fit a general classification of being both widely played and having critical acceptance among the general population and those were dod_railroad and dod_harrington. There were other noteable exceptions but those two stood out. At the time neither were considered simple maps of "block" architecture...they both were of close consistency to the official maps of the time. And...there's not a single custom map out there today of simple design that's "loved".

It seems to me your argument about "eye candy" is really just a code word argument about your feelings about dod source in general. This is a lot like how "intelligent" design folks argue their points to deflect you from their intent. Simple maps will not cure DoD of the issues that have left many of you disatisfied...code changes to weapons accuracy will...but not map design.

I like eye candy yeah. But what good is eye candy if their is horrible gameplay. You everything looks realistic but there are no choke points? That just means that all that work has gone to waste.

While take a look at dod_lerouge for a second. My clan and I love playing on that map. But its made out of block architecture, but we dont really care because during this game we arent taking screenshots or just ogling at the architecture. We are coming to battle the other team.

Im not saying all stock maps horrible and custom maps are awesome. I also love dod_flash. Great eyecandy AND great gameplay. And there isnt too much eyecandy where it starts taking a toll on your computer.

And when i say love i dont mean it literally, so dont take it literally. I simply meant that people like it more than others and have a personally prefer it than onbe like dod_anzio.

Gah, i can;t tell u how much i hate these maps as well, like icecaverns and castle, just really lame and they spread like a virus slowly infecting custom servers

castle is quite fun

In relation to this, I used to run something I deemed "Fun Map Fridays" on my old 1.3 server. Basically, I would run these "gimmick" maps on this day only, as a sort of break for my younger clan members and to attract a different crowd to the server.

We'd run dod_walmart_final, ship_fight, dod_rats2002, dod_tallgrass, dod_cabinfever, wolf_mountain, farmland2, etc.

To me, they were "Fun" maps and not to be taken seriously. They also could NOT be mixed in the regular mapcycle days, because they did not flow with regular DoD maps. They didn't have the same feel, and more importantly, the players who liked traditional DoD-style maps didn't enjoy the Fun maps, and vice versa.

However, they had some value, even if they weren't great maps. They were escapist maps, and some were fun for alot of folks. Not my cup o' tea for the most part, but still valuable maps to many people.

To this day, I don't add maps that aren't of the same "feel" as standard DoD-style maps. Basically, if it's not likely that a battle could've taken place on a similar setting in WW2, then I won't run it.

But I definitely encourage "out of the box" thinking. The more objectives and style of map we have, the better the game will be.

A lot of true things have been said in this thread.
For me, personally, there's only one thing important when I play DOD:S (or DOD for that matter) : FUN

It is more fun to play a map that is visually appealing.
It is more fun to play a map that has great gameplay.

I like both the gimmick maps and the "normal" maps.
I like both the Valve maps and the custom maps.
BUT only if they are fun to play.

This is different for everybody and probably every map is loved by somebody.
I must admit that there are a lot of maps for DOD:S that I don't like, but this is only a matter of time. The threads over here prove that there will be a lot of good maps coming our way !

To me this is no problem... if a server cycles between a lot of maps that I don't like, I go to another server. It's that simple.
It's kinda like watching TV... if a station broadcasts a lot of lousy programs... change the channel instead of trying to make the channel broadcast other shows (because other people might like those lousy shows).

Anyway this is my vision... I play for FUN, so if a map is fun (for me) then I like it, and there are a lot of reasons why a map can be fun and this cannot be easely pinpointed to either visual aspects or gameplay, but it is combination of those two factors and a whole lot of other ones.

Bocasean, I think I used to play on your server occassionally.

Out of all the old gimmick maps, I hope that Ship_fight and Pac_Man eventually make their way into DOD:S. I'd like to see a ragdoll blasted down pac man's corridors.

Old thread, but I don't like creating new ones on a topic already discussed.

I'm sure I'm the only one that thinks this, but I'd love if people could break out of WWII setting, at least for a few maps. Just because the game is in that setting doesnt mean the map has to be. You could make a rats map and say that the Nazis came up with shrink ray technolgy and you're toy soldiers. In TFC we had none of these implied limits of era, you could make a map in ancient japan, in outer space, under water, inside a base, in a canyon, in a castle, wherever.

there is dod_simpsons, dod_risk, dod_chicago (kinda), that I can name off the top of my head.

Originally posted by Ubiquitous
I often frequent that Jiggly's Funhouse server (when I'm not temp banned for unknown reasons). They have small, simple maps that are much more fun than the stock maps. I can't play any of the stock maps in dod and actually have fun.


haha, yeah I think I've seen you on that server a couple of times. They get mad when they get killed and accuse you of cheating a lot. I haven't been banned yet, but a couple of my teammates have, when none of us cheat.

Fun server though, I play it a lot when I get tired of the other maps. I love battle creek.

When a server changes levels and I start to download a new map I almost always cancel it. New maps, especially gimmicky ones, can be very irritating.

I think they're fun, for at least a minute. After a minute, yeah I agree.

And I wouldn't put risk in the same category, its a gimmick but if you do assault only its really fun, you really gotta work with your team to focus on a given flag to take it.

they also load a hell of a lot faster than regular maps too. kalt takes forever to load on my computer.

Oh dear, I'm in the process of making a sniper map that possibly fits the description of the first post (/me hangs head in shame).

But tbh I'm only making it to get to grips with the DOD:S specific entities and stuff.

I know a server that allows these maps and people play on there for a break from "reality" maps.

Some of these maps that I have seen for CS:S have actually atracted a lot of attention and definately had a lot of hard work put into them. The one that springs to mind most is the 1 in a bedroom where it seems the players have been shrunk "land of the giants" stylee.

I do agree tho that maps like this wouldnt really work for DOD:S though.

On the SAS servers we have always promoted custom/fun maps. In source from day one given that we only had 4 maps (and all ones we had played a 1000 times before), the minute a custom was released it was bound to get airtime. I think this was rascals, I also converted a few from HL2 as straight DM maps.

These bought in a lot of traffic because ppl just wanted something else to play, but over time we have retired a lot of my HL2 ports and maps like rascals, barndestroy, powcamp etc.

However, maps like crossfire and Cheese-Sarnie's excellent rework of dm_runoff stood the test from sheer playability.

The download time is a factor I agree but we have some CS:S ports that are 40-60MB downloads in bzip and they still fill the server like dust and aztec, while cbble and piranesi struggle.

I think most of us would agree maps like sora, anvil, dijon and salerno are about the finest examples of the perfect mix from a custom map but as ozz said as server operators we do let the public decide and while maps like alterna and poolday fill the server and get extended I will continue to include them in the rotation.

This thread killed my mapping feeling :( reminds me of the time I made dod_loppem.. I spent weeks building it, to me it seemed hard work.. But nobody played it.. Made me wonder why I'm making maps :/ It's hard work for nothing..

Now, last month, I got the mapping feeling back, and realised that it's fun to make maps and try your very best to make it look god, and ofcourse make it play good.. I dived into one of my all time favourites (dod_schwetz) and desides to go with that kind of gameplay.. A lot of people loved dod_schwetz back then, because it was different.. Even now, the schwetz gameplay is different and nowhere to be seen, yet..

But now I feel like it's all useless again :(

It's not useless as long as you map for yourself and not for anyone/anything else. It's about your own reasons to make maps.

Every mapper wants their map to be played and appreciated by all, I think only fools would claim otherwise. Even the first time mappers that made FY maps for their clan friends wanted those 5-6 persons to like it and play it.

So all the better if people actually do like it, but if you map for your own enjoyment of seeing what you can come up with, you couldn't care less what other players say and in the end that's the only thing that matters.

It's the same in every occupation or even job one can have. The day it starts becoming more of hassle than it is fun is the day one should start thinking about doing something else, at least for a while.

Wellyea, I map because I find it fun to create nice looking maps, and then balance gameplat out.. My problem, though, is that when I'm making the map, it looks nice (imho) but loking back at it a few months later, makes me realise how damn ugly it is.. It'll probably be the same with this now..

Sometimes I catch myself optimising 1 house for 3 days straight untill it looks somewhat half decent

Well for what it's worth coming from a newbie mapper such as myself, I found your screenies to be appealing and I found you had quite the eye of the tiger when it comes to details, as early as your map development may be.

Obviously there are different ways to make maps, some like to finish an area before moving on to the next, others (more professional in my opinion) choose to make a very basic layout and test the gameplay first, before going in with the details (Valve does that for instance).

The only rule I found so far about mapping is that it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, you'll always find new techniques/ways to improve your skills. Whether it's because a new engine upgrade comes your way or because after you've done your 1000th displacement you found out this new way that makes it look better and saves you time.

Either way, as long as it's fun for you to work on, you should keep at it.