I guess I'm looking for a new challenge and mapping seems like one hell of a big one :D

I've been reading a few Hammer tutorials and created my first ever map 'yay!' :D
But it seems like some of those tutorials are still a tiny bit deficient:
for instance, I've seen one tutorial video that shows use of the 'hollow' command to create a room, whilst others seem to generate seperate walls, floor and ceilings. Which is best? Hollow seems much easier.
And another tutorial mentioned 'carve' and then proceeded to say 'don't use it'. Twice :p

Are Carve and Hollow mapping no-noes? If so, why are they still in Hammer?

And although the tutorials so far have been good, they all show the same thing - building a plain room. I'd really like one that shows the correct (i.e. best for performance) way of creating a square map, with a skybox (even just a plain one) with a building with doors and windows. Oh and that displacement road (http://www.dayofdefeat.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57636) would be nice too...

Are there any tutorials out there that are especially good? I've followed some of the links from the mapping FAQ here, but if any spring to mind - please post 'em. Cheers!

I really don't see a problem with carve, but hollow is a nono, it'll give you bad framrates and such, plus everything will be squares.

The Carve tool is ok, but be prepared to play with your vertex editing tool quite a bit (which is something you'll want to master anyway). Many people prefer the clipping tool as it gives better results straight away.

I never use it, don't exactly know why except that it wasn't the most straightforward tool to use as I began mapping.

I've spent a lot of time mastering the vertex editing tool, which makes me use this all the time instead of the carving and clipping.

I've never used the hollow tool but at the very beginning to make an infamous cubic skybox.

Damn, everytime I try to run a map, and then Quit, HL2.exe crashes (gracefully, with the Report Error To MS dialog), and Hammer gets shut down. :( There's a bunch of text at the end of the error report that seems to suggest a %s parameter isn't defined - does that ring any bells with anyone? I followed all the instructions for setting the options in Hammer, so I don't think I missed anything - it may be tied to the occasional crashes I got playing DOD:S when fiddling my graphics settings...?

I'll try and capture some more details the next time.

edit:
Arrggghh! Oh the woes, and the oh-noes. I don't think this mapping lark is for me - I've created a simple arena surrounded by a simple 2D skybox, stuck an info_player_axis into it, and when I run the map it tells me all the teams are full. And all I see is the skybox and a big white oblong where my map ought to be.

*Bugger* :(

edit2:

... it does help if you make the skybox hollow :p :rolleyes:

Tip: Never, ever, use Carve. It can really mess up vertices, and creating problems such as leaks! You learn best from working in vertex-mode...

Ya, carving is fine, if the shape is very simple like a square or rectangle and the items are on the grid.

I see you're all agreeing to disagree :) Thanks for the replies though.

So I'll try and stick to vertex manipulation as everyone seems happy with that.

one quick question...

If I shouldn't use 'hollow', how do I construct the skybox? Or is that a special case / one-off allowed?

many thanks for your patient help... I'm still finding my way around the various on-line tutorials out there, but I'm finding quite a lot are either old or the image links have broken so they're tricky(ish) to follow. But I've already seen enough to realise I'll never make a real map - it's just too damned hard work, but it's fun to play around with bits and pieces though.

Honestly, I don't know what you mean by carve or hollow... at least, I don't think you do. I just know the buttons, and where they are... and what they do. lol

About the teams "being full" when you join them even though there's nobody on them, you have to have to have the spawn entities a few units above the ground that they spawn on. If you try to put them right "on" the ground (especially "in"), then the game won't let you spawn from those points, thus creating then "team is full" message (because there's nowhere to spawn).

oo. major run-on sentence. :p

The hollow command acctually give the same result as you can achieve by building six brushes that together forms a room in between them. It's therefore merely a short-cut to obtained a specific result.

You can use the hollow command to build your skybox, although this might decrease the framerate. But if you're new to mapping I don't see any reason for you to have more complicated skyboxes. Just try not to have an unnecessarily large volume inside the skybox since this will increase compilation time.

Once you've gotten more used to mapping you can start making more advanced skyboxes that follow the map outline and doesn't use any unnecessary space.

As for the cutting tool. It simply is what it sounds like. You use it to cut with brushes. There are several situations where this can be very handy. But you have to be careful when you use it (a good idea is to save your map right before using it, hammer has crashed several times for me when I've been trying to cut too complicated things). Remember to keep clear of any brushes that should not be clipped. Moving the part that is supposed to be clipped together with the clipping brush away from any other brushes might be a good idea, and allways check carefully afterwards to see that you didn't accidentally clip anything else by misstake. Another thing to think of while clipping is to limit the clipping area. If you want to make a round hole in a wall for instance, first make small box in the wall where the hole is supposed to be, then make the hole in this box. This saves the rest of the wall from beeing divided in weird ways.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

I managed to create something vaguely resembling a house tonight. I used vertex manipulation to form the shape of the roof (with quite a bit of trial and lots of error) and even managed to cut some more holes with the clipping tool. But I still haven't found a simple way of texturing the outside of the house satisfactorily... do I have to split the brushes up into parts with the clipping tool so I can apply the window-effect textures etc without them getting out of scale? Or am I thinking toooo laterally? I've seen a tutorial on sizing simple textures on crates, or road kerbs, but nothing on the bigger stuff :(

Sorry if I'm noobing too much, but this is proving very interesting and difficult and frustrating in about equal parts, to me.

I've been using both quite a bit lately building houses. Hollow makes things infinately easier for you, since it gives you a box to go through.

I use carve for windows and doors, in order to get a standard size instead of having each one be different.

Everytime I've tried to use 'carve' my Hammer crashes :(

I'm probably using it wrongly - is it flaky?

every time you use carve or hollow god kills a kitten. You don't want that on your concience do you?

i don't see the point in carving. using the clip tool takes about the same time, considering you have to make the brush you're using to make the cut with carve. and you also have total control over the left over brushes when using the clip tool, whereas with carve it cuts randomly and usually creates extra, uneeded brushes. considering it can create errors and doesn't save much time, you're just better off using the clip tool.

i use hollow all the while though. i make a house from basic blocks all the right dimensions, and then just hollow them. it only takes a few minutes of mitering off the corners and it's done.

Originally posted by travis
every time you use carve or hollow god kills a kitten. You don't want that on your concience do you?

No, I'd rather do it myself... kitten drowning is a hobby of mine...


dogs > cats


;)

Anyway, this still leaves the weird(?) situation where some people say carve/hollow is the devil's work, and others say it's ok... would a dev team member care to comment?

Originally posted by Brooker
No, I'd rather do it myself... kitten drowning is a hobby of mine...You're a very sick person.
;)

I really think that using the carve/hollow tool is a matter of preference. It works OK for some, not so much for others. Some people over-use it... some people hate it and never touch it. Sometimes it can come in handy, sometimes it's a pain in the a** to deal with.

IMO, it's okay only if you know how to use it effectively, and what to do with the brushes after its use.
It's not okay to use if those tools are practically the only ones you use. Not even applying vertex manip.

Stop what you are doing immediately. Start a new map. Set your units to "8" and use the orange textures to build a house before you do anything else. Use standard brush sizes when you can (4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512). BEFORE you add damage learn how to make an architecturally sound house. Use a decomipler to decompile donner and copy one of their full-up houses out and see how they built it. Add in stairs, an upstairs bedroom and bathroom and go from there.