Expert Advice pls

Ive been in and out of mapping for over a year now, but Ive never been able to grasp the entire process. Sure there are a ton of tuts, and advice, but when it comes down to it, a person has to learn on their own.. What Im asking the ppl that have released maps to the public, is how and what is the best way to create a map? some things are obvious like planning, but what about the small things like size of brushes, texture size... ect.. the problem im finding is, when i create a map that has no leaks i still find that when im in the map and I face a certain direction the w_polys go up to about 700-1000? what causes this?... ive double checked the conections (there is no void comming in) Ive tried reshaping the areas where it goes up but still no luck.. and the thing is i can remember this problem from my early days of mapping so there must be something im missing..

Things Im doing to create my map:
-plan (good shape map)
-used all triangles to create walls,floors,and sky all conections perfect (no leaks)(some stretched brushes but not large)
-so far only 3 textures used sky,sand,rock
-observer,2x alliesstart,2x axisstart,playerstart,info-light
-using zhlts GUI to compile (save,export.map.. compile)

if im missing valuable info pls help me out.. im trying to release my first public map, but i keep running into problems...

thnx to all that respond

One important thing to undestand is that for every good-quality released map out there, the mapper has probably made about 10-20 other maps that they ended up scrapping for some reason or another.

Posting a screenshot of the area in question would be a good idea. In cases like this, a picture can ve worth a thousand words ...

rgr... i have made about 10-15 test maps.. i understand the importance of triangles and this map that i want to release only had 1 leak and it is a rather large map... i feal i have finaly got the nack for the outer shell... i can show a couple examples of what i have so far... but my main concern is settings, like whats the best size of brush to make? (is it the size of the texture your going to use on that brush?) for instance in my map ill show the triangles.. is it better to use larger triangles to cut down on the number of brushes? my triangles are mostly 64 units which i plan to use a texture of 128x128 or larger?... pls stand by for screenshots...

**edit

http://acrclan.recongamer.com/other/overviewofscreenshots.gif
http://acrclan.recongamer.com/other/screenshot1.gif
http://acrclan.recongamer.com/other/screenshot2.gif
http://acrclan.recongamer.com/other/screenshot3.gif
http://acrclan.recongamer.com/other/screenshot4.gif
http://acrclan.recongamer.com/other/screenshot5.gif
http://acrclan.recongamer.com/other/exampleofedges.gif

they all seem to be pointing to the void in the middle of the map?

**edit

hlcsg v2.5.3 rel Custom Build 1.7 (Dec 9 2002)
Zoner's Half-Life Compilation Tools -- Custom Build
Based on code modifications by Sean 'Zoner' Cavanaugh
Based on Valve's version, modified with permission.
Submit detailed bug reports to (merlinis@bigpond.net.au)
----- BEGIN hlcsg -----
Command line: "d:\Valve Hammer Editor\tools\HLCSG.EXE"-nowadtextures G:\MyFiles\hammer_testbuild04\prefabs\dod_desert.m ap
Entering G:\MyFiles\hammer_testbuild04\prefabs\dod_desert.m ap

Current hlcsg Settings
Name | Setting | Default
---------------------|-----------|-------------------------
threads [ 1 ] [ Varies ]
verbose [ off ] [ off ]
log [ on ] [ on ]
developer [ 0 ] [ 0 ]
chart [ off ] [ off ]
estimate [ off ] [ off ]
max texture memory [ 4194304 ] [ 4194304 ]
priority [ Normal ] [ Normal ]

noclip [ off ] [ off ]
null texture stripping[ on ] [ on ]
clipnode economy mode [ on ] [ on ]
onlyents [ off ] [ off ]
wadtextures [ off ] [ on ]
skyclip [ on ] [ on ]
hullfile [ None ] [ None ]
min surface area [ 0.500 ] [ 0.500 ]
brush union threshold [ 0.000 ] [ 0.000 ]

Using mapfile wad configuration
Wadinclude list :
[zhlt.wad]

0 brushes (totalling 0 sides) discarded from clipping hulls
CreateBrush:
(155.29 seconds)
SetModelCenters:
(0.00 seconds)
CSGBrush:
(76.52 seconds)

Using Wadfile: \sierra\half-life\valve\halflife.wad
- Contains 4 used textures, 100.00 percent of map (3116 textures in wad)

Texture usage is at 0.07 mb (of 4.00 mb MAX)
232.60 seconds elapsed [3m 52s]

----- END hlcsg -----



hlbsp v2.5.3 rel Custom Build 1.7 (Dec 9 2002)
Zoner's Half-Life Compilation Tools -- Custom Build
Based on code modifications by Sean 'Zoner' Cavanaugh
Based on Valve's version, modified with permission.
Submit detailed bug reports to (merlinis@bigpond.net.au)
----- BEGIN hlbsp -----
Command line: "d:\Valve Hammer Editor\tools\HLBSP.EXE"-estimate G:\MyFiles\hammer_testbuild04\prefabs\dod_desert.m ap

Current hlbsp Settings
Name | Setting | Default
-------------------|-----------|-------------------------
threads [ 1 ] [ Varies ]
verbose [ off ] [ off ]
log [ on ] [ on ]
developer [ 0 ] [ 0 ]
chart [ off ] [ off ]
estimate [ on ] [ off ]
max texture memory [ 4194304 ] [ 4194304 ]
priority [ Normal ] [ Normal ]

noclip [ off ] [ off ]
nofill [ off ] [ off ]
null tex. stripping [ on ] [ on ]
notjunc [ off ] [ off ]
subdivide size [ 240 ] [ 240 ] (Min 64) (Max 512)
max node size [ 1024 ] [ 1024 ] (Min 64) (Max 4096)


BSP generation successful, writing portal file 'G:\MyFiles\hammer_testbuild04\prefabs\dod_desert. prt'

----- END hlbsp -----

there must also be a reason why hl keeps crashing when i place a model in my map? the compiler says no errors however, hl crashes when it tries to load the map? only when i try and add a model.. i think it has something to do with compiling the model? (settings on the GUI?)???

Originally posted by [ACR]Gen.Miner


Things Im doing to create my map:
-plan (good shape map)
-used all triangles to create walls,floors,and sky all conections perfect (no leaks)(some stretched brushes but not large)
-so far only 3 textures used sky,sand,rock
-observer,2x alliesstart,2x axisstart,playerstart,info-light
-using zhlts GUI to compile (save,export.map.. compile)

if im missing valuable info pls help me out.. im trying to release my first public map, but i keep running into problems...

thnx to all that respond

I'm not sure what your asking or trying to get at here, but here's some advice.

Do not use triangles to create walls,floors, etc. I'm not sure how you got the idea to do that. You can however create terrain or rubble out of triangles.

Walls, floors, and most stuff should be made out of a single SQUARE brush. And if you have a open house, that would be multiple square brushes.

it is an out door map? did you not see the screenshots?

No, I did not see them as you only put them in there after I posted. All I read was you make "walls" and "floors" out of triangles.

Still, with what you have there it would be almost impossible to get low r_speeds.

Ok if your facing a certain way and your w_poly goes it its cause theres more to see over there. Yes I just pointed out the blidningly obvious but let me get to my point. The engine draws all tthe things it thinks you can see, despite the fact you may not be able to physically see it all the game renders it. avoiding this is called VIS blcoking. If you alwasy get high r_speeds looking 1 way you have a few choices
1- decrease the detail, cut back on brushes/merge a few, scale up some textures, make some brushes entitys
2- VIS block the area better, this means include natural obstacles to block the players sight.

Just becasue Its an outdoor map dotn think you magically get some liscense to use traingles all you want. Use squares and warp them, then when you cant achive the ffect like that swith to triangles, knowing when to use which is a skill thats takes a while to get. The HL engine is poor graphically the DOD team is pushing it. The shots of your map werernt all to helpfull (post r_speeds as text not screenshots, screenshots should show us your maps brushwork).

Another thing I observed is you should be using the "null" texture I'm sure you can find soe tuts on it somewehere cause it's an over coverd topic.

Bit hard to see much since you've got the console down in the screenshots. Have you tried gl_wireframe 1 and gl_wireframe 2 to see how the HL engine is drawing your map? I think if you did you'll find that:

a] the engine is seeign a lot more of the map than you wnat it to and hence the high wpoly and/or
b] that theway you've tried to make naturalistic walls is resulting in high wpoly. The HL engine isn't chopping up your trianular brushes the way you think.

Try the gl_wireframe commands, they'll reveal what's goign on for you.

only had 1 leak and it is a rather large map

But you fixed it right? if you didnt, vis doesnt run i beleive, and HL will render the entire map wether or not you can see it.

why exactly is your console down? if you want to see the r_speeds without having the console down just type "developer 1" then type "r_speeds 1" that'll allow you to see the r_speeds in the game without having to have the console in the way. and having a leak will cause VIS and RAD to not be able to run. so in those cases the r_speeds will not be a proper representation of what they "should" be.

Looks like you have created a massive outdoor map using lots of faces to create those cliffs.

It also looks very bright which can mean you haven't compiled with VIS, in wich case I beleve Winnebago might be right. You need to make sure you don't have a leak. If you don't have a leak then compile with VIS.

One thing you could try, as AB mentions, is to scale the texture size on the cliffs and floor by two (x2 both X and Y).

If you still have problems then I do suggest making a much smaller and simpler map. You do say that you have created other maps but you also say that you have had problems with r_speed on all of them. It was only when I started making small box rooms and checked the r_speeds that I realised why my bigger maps were an absolute pile-o-pants.

Please try to take note of what other people are telling you, they are only trying to help you.

Everone who has posted in this thead has made very good points and their advice should be followed. If you don't understand something then please post back.

Most people here are willing to help you :)

thnx for replies... and thanks for explaining a few things that the tuts dont.. i wasnt aware that the engine is drawing the far side of the map even thought the player cant see it... this is probably why i get some lag in the direction of the other side of the map.. its kinda built like the letter "U" but with narrow passages separating the main battle areas. so what i will try next is to make the hill sides higher towards the inside of the "U"... or is there a better solution?

as for textures/square brushes.. i should lesson the amount of triangle brushes with larger square brushes? (except for hills/holes) should i design the square brushes to be the size of the texture ie: 128x128 or 256x256? or does this matter? you guys are saying that i should maybe scale it x2 larger?

and most of you are right i didnt run VIS from the compiler.. i thought that once i get the shell working and with little lag/r_speeds i then could start working on vis/rad? or should this be done asap?

and i was also wondering why hl crashes when i place a .mdl in my map... when i take it out everything runs fine? is it because im not running vis? no right?

again thnx for support... I LOVE YOU MAN!

One thing I learned while mapping for this engine is that you should give the player "the illusion of being in a large area" rather then actually making a large area. Consider the arena as a hollywood set: Only what the camera actually sees is built.

besides knowing how the engine functions and how it handles polygons, brushes, entities, light, etc.
You should know what it can and more importantly can't do.

Going from this premise: You need to map "smart". Meaning: try to get the max of details with less brushes. An impressive canyon that has an S-shape instead of an U shape wil most likely cut down on your w_poly. Instead of making one outdoor space, divide your map in several outdoor spaces connected with caves or bunkers or boulders. again: this means the engine has to draw less so you could use that precious spare CPU-speed to make those different open spaces more detailed and visual stunning.

Mapping smart means also: you have a certain approach on how you place brushes to make up a house. When that house causes to high a r_speeds, think logical: the engine sees to much, so the house is build badly, therefor I have to rethink a new technique of placing brushes in a cifferent combination to get the same house.

Mapping isn't just placing brushes and hoping that what you want to make, the engine will render it flawless. It's exactly knowing where you place those brushes so the player sees them at exactly that or that spot at that or that time.

anyway,

that's my two cents on mapping :)

Originally posted by [ACR]Gen.Miner
and most of you are right i didnt run VIS from the compiler.. i thought that once i get the shell working and with little lag/r_speeds i then could start working on vis/rad? or should this be done asap? This is the problem with your r_speeds, you will get right value only with VIS processed (no FAST setting). Sometimes (maybe always, i'm not sure) you will get low FPS if you have not run RAD (lighting process).

About you other questions about textures and brushes - all I can say is: it depends. Depends on many things like character of your map, amount of detail you want to put in, textures used, etc. So you will know if you get some experience. Trial and error is not so uncommon thing, practiced even by pro mappers, you can't be sure what engine will do with your map sometimes :-\.

Do yourself a favor...read all the r_speed reduction techinques you can get your hands on...verc, countermap, others. And start really small...make a simple room that connects via a hallway with another room...learn how to use the "S" turn concept described earlier (run through glider...every area is connected with a "S" turn tunnel or entrance of some sort...that way the engine doesn't "see" each other's area).

The key is to learn how to do stuff in small, easy-to-compile test maps...like the tutorial rmfs/map files up on countermap...so as you go along you understand the basics. It's a slow and tedious process but rewarding...it's how a lot of us started...the old two-room-connected-with-a-hallway map.

that's why fuzz maps so slow :)

Originally posted by FuzzDad
...The key is to learn how to do stuff in small, easy-to-compile test maps...like the tutorial rmfs/map files up on countermap...so as you go along you understand the basics. It's a slow and tedious process but rewarding...it's how a lot of us started...the old two-room-connected-with-a-hallway map.

I used to map like half the map bfr I tried my first compile. 70 errors later I scrapped it. I then statred the map up like 2 months later but built it in little sections with ltos of test compiles. and bfr I realized it I'd got no errors and more map than last time.