So I still see a lot of people posts saying that they are still using max or some other app which really suprised me. With XSI being free as well as the tool that we use here at Valve, I really dont understand why people still use these other apps. Its pretty frustrating for me when I get an email from someone having model trouble, and all their source is in .max format.

For those not using XSI, I think its safe to assume 1 of 3 things.
1) You own it. Maybe there's 1 or 2 of you that do, but I think we all know even thats pushing it.

2) Your school has it. The drawback with this, is that 99.9% of the time, any work you do at school, is the schools property. If you're making your mod at school, and it becomes big, trust me, the school is gonna want a piece of it.

3) You've warezed it. This is just a no-win situation, and really there's no excuse for this when XSI is free!

So for kicks, just post which package you use. And if it's not XSI, I'd love to know why you aren't using it. I really hope that people arent just lazy. Learning the UI takes a week or 2 tops.

And most importantly, here is the link to the XSI Mod Tool and Valve Source Add-on (http://www.softimage.com/products/Mod/v4/default.asp?pg=http://www.softimage.com/products/MOD/v42/downloads/). If you're not using it, you should be.

I use 3dsmax ..
and it's a nr. 3 on your list .. yea i know :(

I have try the free version of XSI severel
times .. but it's just so difficult to use ..
the interface is not like any other 3d progams ..
When you see ms3d, 3dsmax and maya
you'll see that they have been build up
pretty much the same ..
So i guess it's just because im in the habit
of useing 3dsmax like programs.

3D Studio Max 7.

if i had money i'd be making models like mad...

Originally posted by kwsn
if i had money i'd be making models like mad...

... did you read my post? XSI is free. Its what we use at Valve. So I dont understand why you need $.

ok, but i also don't have time during the week.

school is a *****

edit: i'm supposed to be doing homework right now :P

I got the trial of max and XSI, and I simply found max easier to use. I am, by the way, using a 1-year student license, so I did not steal it.

LOL I dont want to know where you got your stuff guys. I'm just interested in what you're using, and why, if its not XSI, you're not using XSI. Which is FREE and the same toolset we use here at Valve.

Thanks for the link PIU. :D

I use max simply because it seems easier. I watched tutorials for it before I even got it, and I had experimented with XSI, and max seemed easier, even though XSI is equally, if not more, powerful.

I use 3dsmax because that's what they taught us at university + i've been using it for a long time.

I have XSI installed, but now that i've got all the 3dsmax half-life 2 tools working (exporters/importers/etc) i don't need to touch XSI at all...unless someone can convince me otherwise.

well i just dl'ed xsi, guess i'll vote as using it, since it's my only option

Originally posted by PickItUp
LOL I dont want to know where you got your stuff guys. I'm just interested in what you're using, and why, if its not XSI, you're not using XSI. Which is FREE and the same toolset we use here at Valve.

XSI has its flaws though...

I didnt see the HL original... MilkShape

I use it because I know how, it is defiantely not a good program, but it is "GOOD ENOUGH"

I tried to follow some tuts on max, but, I was soo lost, i gave up and decided to go back too the sledge hammer approach.

I downloaded XSI and was in the process of using it, but some glaring problems have shown themselves that I have no idea how to fix, so the model I was working on never got beyond 2D.

I'm not sure what flaws or glaring problems you guys are running into if its the same program we use to make our content here.

I was asked for some tutorials for XSI. Here are some sites to checkout:

Ed Harriss' Soft site. (http://www.edharriss.com/) (Softimage site that's been around forever. Probably a good place to start.)

XSI Base (http://www.xsibase.com) (Community XSI site.)

Softimage Product Forums (http://forum.softimage.com/) (Check out the Mod Tool and EXP for HL2 forums)

VERC Source developement forums (http://www.chatbear.com/board.plm?b=390) (The SDK and source dev public forums, mod'd by some valve members I think.)

Well, I guess most if it involves me not knowing how to use the software. I was trying to make polygons by connecting existing points, and what I was doing needed the boundaries of the polygons to stay so that I could manipulate them to get depth, but when I tried creating them, they'd disolve the boundaries so it was just one big face.

Thats just a process thing. You just right-click when you want to finalize a poly. Otherwise it will let you make a single "face" made of as many tri's as you want.

All packages are the same, its just learning the new name of the button that does the same thing.

it's mush easyer to find plugins for other games like battlefield etc. than for xsi
and i think most of the foum members model for other games too

Ive never needed to make anything so complicated that a package such as the ones listed would be needed. However-

Ive used XSI many times, the interface is "ok" and fairly intuitive, but the fact you MUST use a their screen resolutions bothers the hell out of me.

Why they cant develop support for the screen res at least down to 1024x768 bothers me, and prevents me from using it on a regular basis.

Considering all the technology that went into XSI -- not supporting lower resolutions is a pretty mind boggling conundrum.

I find 3d Studio Max is the most well supported and has the most 3rd party plug-ins, which is why i must side with it.

Originally posted by Watchtower
Considering all the technology that went into XSI -- not supporting lower resolutions is a pretty mind boggling conundrum.

then why don't you use a higher screen resolution, is your computer/monitor really that :crown::crown::crown::crown:ty?

*updated* I added a few more options to the poll to reflect software I know has support for HL2 modelling in it.

Personal comments to PIU's original question - a lot of these are based on discussions/requests for help I've actually had from people doing stuff with Source.

- To the average hackjob/modeller XSI is a very daunting application to use for the first time. Most people tend to want to just "dabble" and get lost in all the features of XSI. All they need is something like Milkshape3D's interface and XSI is like walking into the cockpit of the Space Shuttle.

- Likewise, a lot of mappers are now needing to learn modelling because of the increase in model usage in maps. Your talking about people from the simple Hammer world of building with blocks to something like XSI. It scares the bee gees out of them.

- Its 2005, and sadly no-one has the attention span to sit down and learn how to use stuff. Tutorials or not, I would bet 75% of people who downloaded XSI gave up after an hour as they couldnt figure out the basics without RTFM. You need some specific, thorough and easy to follow tutorials targetted as achieving specific tasks in XSI for Source.

- Max is probably the most common professional 3D app used in game modding for the past n years. Almost every game SDK i've seen released has had plugins and sample content based on Max. Consequently people who have modded for other games or even Goldsrc, most likely have it and the skills to use it and are going to be resistant to change to something else. They can do what they do in Max and have already invested time in learning it. Why change to something else just to export SMD files?

- Speaking personally, XSI had some hellish technical issues when it was first released for HL2. Apart from the screen resolution problems I had chronic and intermittent crashes, chewed up a ton of disk space and memory and it really soured the experience.

- I understand the 4.2 release is better, but the original 3.5 lacked something important - support for importing common/existing file formats. I you had something in SMD or 3DS format you couldnt get it into XSI and it wouldnt import anything except dotXSI format. Most other 3D apps didnt have dotXSI export support (thats why I wrote my own for Milkshape3D - just to be able to get stuff into XSI in the first place) and some of SoftImages own dotXSI plug-ins for apps created files that the XSI couldnt even open.

- Even though I use Max a lot more now for modelling, I still occasionally use Milkshape3D and LithUnWrap as part of my workflow. This is easy as they all support open/save of common formats. As mentioned above, because of the free versions lack of ability in this area I felt locked in and it made me less productive. In the end I went back to my old software as it let me work the way I want to work.

In summary - XSI might be free for Source but for the average user it too feature rich and too much of a learning curve. I'd say only a small percentage of potential modellers are going to want to use its animation and rigging features and really just want a simple mesh modelling app. Also, the prevelance of Max and Milkshape3D users and the fact those apps now support Source, means their going to carry on being used.

XSI might be better/official but if what you've got works and your comfortable/efficient with it - why would you want to change?

You want my advice? Talk to Mete about getting a version of Milkshape that links into the steam filesystem so it cant be used outside of the SDK and with only the relevant plugins for Source. I reckon for 80%-90% of users thats all their ever going to need.

I've never modelled before so when I decided to start I chose XSI as its the "offical" one so to speak.

Everyone laughed at me, saying "why?, Max is 10x easier" and from the looks of it they are right. Max just feels easier to use compared to XSI where there are tons of buttons and stuff.

Sure It'll take a while to learn but I had a quick go at Max and it was a lot easier to pick up than XSI.

It also ran a lot better than XSI and has a larger support base.

"All packages are the same, its just learning the new name of the button that does the same thing."

Exactly. Having spent years mastering *Max, I'm not really motivated enough to switch, especially if it's the same thing in a different outfit. You might say that in the industry you have to be able to adapt, but this is just a simple hobby for me.

I bought Milkshape3D & Ultimate Unwrap...

For my level of skill, and the amount of modelling I actually do both apps are easy to use... Not to mention that they were pretty easy on the pocketbook too...


...

I am just learning how to model and I would like to learn XSI because

1)Better support with HL2 (it seems) and

2) I am poor and since I don't know how to model I am not going to waste hundreds on a program when I don't even know how to model.

But the problem is...there are no good tuts for XSI, they are either to technical or too vague. 3dsMax has so many tuts made by modders and fellow gamers that they are more personal and easier to understand, same with maya and Milkshape. (The easies tuts in my eyes are those of guns)

As much as XSI seems promising, for newbies it is hell. As said before, once you load it up you are just in shock...the GUI is loaded to the brim with buttons and tabs and you bring down a toolbar option and it goes all the way to the bottom of the screen...

But when I see vid tuts the person who uses it makes it seem so easy http://www.hl2modcentral.com/tutorial.php?id=27&cat=0 though this is the only good tut I have found til now and it still isn't the best as it is using the full version and options we don't have. I would love to see some tuts come straight from you guys at VALVe but you are busy undoubtedly.

It seems more over that even veteran modelers are newbies to this program and like I have said the tuts are not the greatest...no learning support.

Edit: I just found this, haven't viewed it yet but it might help some of you http://www.hl2modcentral.com/tutorial.php?id=35&cat=2

Actually I put those two tutorials in the XSI tutorials thread earlier - I'll keep an eye out for others and add them when I find them.

I sympathise with you though - I'm fairly experienced with Max and Milkshape3D and only really went to the help files/tutorials when I got really stuck.

XSI just wasnt "intuitive" from the moment it started - some of the basics where there but it took me a while to find things and a lot of it didnt work the same was as other apps.

I know you can re-configure keys, etc. as you like but I did find it odd that sort of "standard" for keyboard shortcuts used in other apps did something totally different.

As PIU said, its just a question of learning what button does what but if it was a little more obvious it wouldnt require so much legwork. That and some specific Source tutorials from Valve would be great ( the vids you released were nice but didnt show much and you spent most of the time in them answering the mobile ;) ).

Actually just thinking, maybe a project for MSA could be to make a cut down config setup for XSI to strip out the extranious stuff and just have a "lite" interface with more sane keyboard shortcuts.

havn't they disabled that funktion in XSI
i thought i read that ..
you can change the keysettings .. but you can't save it ..
same goes for the interface ..

i gots maya and milkshape...

What means this "3D" me-um use-um photoshop.

Personally I just find Maya the most intuitive program to use myself. I'v ebeen using it for years and there isn't really anything that it can't do that I much care about. Teh only problem I have with it is compatibility issues with other programs. The HL SDK apparently has an SMD exporter for Maya, but it's for a version several years in the past, and no attempts have been made to update it.

I go through phases.

Used to work on Milky when I first learnt, then moved onto 3Ds Max, now I'm using Maya as its what my uni uses.

Never really embraced XSI but then again I don't do any DoD related work anymore so ah well.

As far as modelling packages tho i found milky to be the easiest to use in conjunction with DoD and the HL engine in general. Just my perference.

Originally posted by Trigger
The HL SDK apparently has an SMD exporter for Maya, but it's for a version several years in the past, and no attempts have been made to update it.

I think there have been a few updates to it done by people over at the VERC forums. Pretty much once the SDK came out every man and his dog started making SMD exporters for their chosen modelling package du jour.

GAH!

XSI can go rot in hell!

:mad:

[/anger mode]

I'm a Milkshape man personaly. It's what I learned to model with. I dont have enough time to learn a new program really.

xsi is nice for Mappors like me ! :)

I just started trying to learn modeling, and I'm doing it with XSI. That thing is a beast of a program. The interface alone is enough to make me faint. I'd much rather focus on learning modeling, not learning XSI!

Well I am in-between jobs right now and I decided to hit up that tut for XSI to make a 1911 Colt. When I first loaded it up I thought to myself "what the hell am I doing, I've never modeled before. There is so much here I will never learn it all"

Now, day 2, I am on video 6/12 and I feel like I have been using this program for months! The hotkeys are a godsend! I don't have to worry about moving the camera/view and it messing up my tools or anything. I hold down 's' and can pan with my LMB, dolly with MMB, and rotate with my RMB. Simple as that...I let go of 's' whatever action I was doing is right where I left it.

Honestly...this is a great program...scary at first, yes...but easy! I think that even if you are a vet Max/Maya/MS/Blender...whatever...you should do this tutorial, mind you it is for beginners so major detailing is a lack thereof and he makes a lot of minor mistakes and corrects them, but at this point I make less mistakes than he does :p .

I know that many of you think..."oh but the keys and tools are hard to relearn" but I have mapped for a couple years now and learned many different mapping tools for different games and this...it isn't that hard to do...just make the time and try it. This is a very easy program for beginners, and looks to be a very powerful tool for pros (based mainly off of what valve has done with it). I am not saying give up you favorite program, but more 'at least give this a try'. Plus it is good to know multiple programs, right.

Yeah, I've been doing a couple tutorials myself, the 1911 one included (great, simple tutorial), and I'm finding it much easier now.

Half the reason XSI looks so scary is because any given tool can be found in about five different places, making it seem like there are five times the tools there really are. That and the menus can literally span the whole vertical length of your screen. I thought I'd never understand any of it. I'm convinced that they could have made the interface better, but it's becoming more and more intuitive as I go along.

glad to hear more of you are picking up XSI.

what 1911 tutorials are you guys reffering to?

Sorry bout that I meant to post the link http://www.hl2modcentral.com/tutorial.php?id=27&cat=0

It is a really good tut. His first language is not English so he says things funny from time to time that makes me laugh...and then he makes fun of himself. It makes it a very relaxing tut.

I have got through another 3 last night. About half way I got to the point where I just had to hear what he said we needed to generally do, and I could do it. The first 5 or six vids go slow because, if you are new like me, you have to pause frequently so you can keep-up and repeat everything perfectly...but you quickly learn the ropes and you can do the motions with out watching him. I also took a sneak peek and scanned through the last vid 'Optimizing' and at the end he also teaches you a few tris for when you are showing off your model, how to render! Very cool and very easy.

Modeling is something I have always wanted to do, now I am going into a Graphic Design major and decided I needed to find a way to learn this stuff on my own time too. This program is just awsome and I think I will be sticking to it for some time.\

Hey PIU, is there and way I could hook up a different rendering program to this mod tool that isn't restricted? Like YafRay or something, so I can get larger renders?

Update: Ok it is 8:00 pst and I have finally finished it!!! My very first model, thanks to this tut, the results are just ming boggling!! The last 4-5 vids I did all myself and watched what he did after ward (hence why it took me all night hehe)...well here are my results
http://img172.echo.cx/img172/4366/rend15ny.jpg
http://img172.echo.cx/img172/7900/rend24re.jpg
http://img172.echo.cx/img172/7420/rend38pw.jpg
http://img172.echo.cx/img172/9607/rend43yl.jpg
http://img172.echo.cx/img172/3826/rend50wn.jpg
http://img172.echo.cx/img172/5315/rend66tc.jpg
http://img172.echo.cx/img172/7923/rend76qv.jpg
http://img172.echo.cx/img172/4664/rend82wn.jpg

I know that is alot of pics but (a)I am excoted/proud (b)I wanted to show as much of the model as possible and (c) I got carried away with rendering :p

It weighs in at 2700 I think. I did things a bit differently from what he did so mine would look a bit better it only put me 100-50 tris over his.

XSI ROCKS!....time to sleep.....

probably a bit off with this one but didnt think of where to ask - I'm a total N00b - Ive started following the tutorial for the colt but when I click on S to move the screen I loose the curve tool and have to start again. How do i flick from one to another like desty does in the tutorial?

Maya for teh win

pft everyone does those Colts thanks to that tutorial

XSI and Max are good programs i'll give em that but they ain't got :crown::crown::crown::crown: on Maya

http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/p88_model.JPG - A P88 I made
http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/p88_render.jpg - P88 Render

http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/raging_bull2.JPG - Raging Bull i'm Working on
http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/bull_render.jpg - Render of the Raging Bull

http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/dude.JPG - Some Random dude I made
http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/dude_render.jpg - Dude render

http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/mp5k.JPG - MP5K Almost Finished
http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/mp5k_render.jpg - Quick MP5K Render

http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/spaz12.JPG - Spaz12 Shotgun again almost finished
http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/spaz12_render.jpg - A quick render of the Spaz12

just a few of my models i done some cars, vehicles, funiture and such

and that's from a coder NOT a modeller

i tried to use XSI, but everything in it is just overly complex. i spent hours trying to uvmap a simple window frame which was impossible. 3dsmax was easy to use from the first time i opened it, everything in it is just quick and simple to do, and exporting is also easier than in XSI.

Hey Majestic, not trying to turn this thread into a pissing contest by any means, but I get awsome quality from XSI!

See here, http://cdg.csnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=22421

And that is my second model all work done within a 24 hour period. XSI is extremely easy to learn and use if you just give it time.

I ain't trying to do that i'm just trying to show people how good maya is, maya doesn't have a very big community with half life

It has a HUGE max following and a gorwing softimage following and a few maya modellers

I'm just trying to show some of the quality of maya and how easy it is to use even for coders like my self who model now and again as favors and for a few od jobs, i'll admit i ain't an amazing modeller and don't show off maya's full potential but there ya go

oh i finished the raging bull in the early hours of this morning lol

http://www.ilsgaming.com/models_dev/Raging_bull.wmv sorry about the :crown::crown::crown::crown:ty codec best one i could find for the quality and the size

Looks nice.



ahh clan of the dead goat...must use this

http://cdg.csnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=22484
http://www.hellspike.net/dayattheoffice.jpg

I was just digging around in a drawer and found the install disks of the 3D app that started it all for me! :D

Behold! The original 3D Studio 4 for MS-DOS! (http://groody.free.fr/galerie/3d_studio_4/)

Oh, my God...

That's like EA's Deluxe Paint, which I started doing graphics on. Manual gradients, yo.

dont much care for XSI, have not really messed with it all that much honestly

Photoshop(textures)
XSI(to get the figure)
ZBrush(for details)
3dmax(applying textures/rendering)

i am used to useing milkshape, because it it easy to use with the hl 1 mods, but seeing as hl2 mods are now coming out, do you think milkshape is adaquate for making models for hl2, or should i switch to this new one everyone is talking about to make higher poly models...
but as for now i vote good old milkshape, mainly because i can compile a model with 2 mouse clicks and dont have to mess with any qc files

*edit* saw someone menchaned zbrush, looked it up and the things you can do with this are simply amazing for detailing

Zbrush is a bit of a learning curve - trust me... :rolleyes:

Milkshape is fine for Half-Life2 *except* it cant do vertex weighting i.e have a vertex influenced by more than one bone. That said, for everything else its perfectly fine for HL2.

One way around the vertex weighting issue though is to make your model in Milkshape and do simple vertex weighting as you would in HL1 and then export the model as HL2 SMD. Import that into XSI and then adjust the envelope of the vertex weights to tweak them and re-export as XSI.

I read yesterday that in 1.7.5 the limits are 65535 polys and 65535 vertices per model. Im not sure, but I think the XSI mod tool is actually *less* than that. It certainly wouldn't let me export my 13000 poly model to SMD format.

XSI Mod Tool's exporter limit is set to 7500 triangles. But considering that smds are just ascii files, it's probably not hard to split and export the model in parts and merge it with a text editor.
Didn't try that yet, as I'm just fine with the limit. The regular model should stay below 7500 polys anyway. Unless it's something "map filling" like the submarine u talked about in another thread.

Milkshape sounds interesting, gonna check that out when my exams are over. The part where XSI annoys me to a certain amount, is the UV mapping. Hope Milkshape is easier on that.

Saw that ZBrush fish demo movie. Not the easiest thing to learn. Milkshape & XSI lack native normal mapping tools, thats where ZBrush sure of comes in handy. But I don't mess with character models, so that's none of my business.

uv mapping in milkshape is easier, but, less controlable. It is "ok" for quick non-sexy skins, but you need lithunwrap or something else if you want it to at all decent.

I just started learning to model and i have been using XSI, just got the latest retail version and it is quite amazing, the new GATOR system is really nice

I don't see why anyone would want to use 3DS, Maya or Milkshape over XSI, xsi is far superior in every aspect and it automates most tasks for you

As far as i am concerned XSI is a much higher quality product

Originally posted by Someth|ngW|cked
I just started learning to model and i have been using XSI, just got the latest retail version and it is quite amazing, the new GATOR system is really nice

I don't see why anyone would want to use 3DS, Maya or Milkshape over XSI, xsi is far superior in every aspect and it automates most tasks for you

As far as i am concerned XSI is a much higher quality product

And now for a word from our sponsers...

edorphin looks nice.

Yeah i havn'yt tryed Endorphin yet but it looks like it has a better animation pipeline then XSI

I still hail XSI as the best 3d creation backage available right now

And i just realized that it is made by AVID, they still have the best video editing system