What do you want in a map


[oap]Agent_S
03-23-2005, 03:06 AM
Hi everyone, my first post here but ive been playing DOD since 1.3b ( the good ol days ;) )

I Have made a few maps for CS but really have not been a big fan of CS since experiencing the much better community that was DOD.

I intend to make a map for DOD source, I have my ideas but what I really want to do is make a map that is compiled from the best suggestions from you guys.

Try not to suggest maps that you think will be in DOD-S anyway I think that a D-Day style beach map is inevitable but I could be wrong!

Anyway please post away your suggestions.

Many thanks in advance

killer tomato
03-23-2005, 03:25 AM
Height difference

When added with some good thinking, this aspect could really enchance the layout/tactical aspect of the map and the eyecandy.

Theatre

Make your map so that the person who's playing it, is feeling like he is playing in a beautifull and atmospheric envoirement. Also make sure the envoirement makes sense, of course.

Detail

Make sure your map has enough detail but balance it out. That's very important.

Balance / consistency

Balance your map out. The layout must be balanced, the use of detail and brushwork. Very important; be consistent in your use of models, textures and brushes.

Research

Also handy to do some research about the subject you have taken for your map. Try to get your hands on pictures wich show you the architecture, flora and founa etc.
This will also help you put athmosphere in your level.

Speed

Don't haste yourself in the developement in your map. It will ruin a great idea. Map only when you feel like it. Don't push yourself. Good idea's will come with time.

What I want to see in a map?

- New things. Try to be inovative. Stick to good things that allready excist, but also try to show us something new. Don't be afraid to add custom stuff like models, textures, skyboxes etc.

- Athmosphere. Add as much athmosphere as you can without altering the layout too much. Flora / Fauna, models, debris etc.

- Good brushwork. Try to be precise in the brushwork. We don't want to see large cubes as houses, badly clipped models etc.

That's it for me. ;)

travis
03-23-2005, 03:46 AM
cod's juno beach converted to source

[oap]Agent_S
03-23-2005, 05:30 AM
Thank tomato a great set of guidelines and some good ideas,

for location you got me thinking a train station with high banks on the sides to give height.

Random thats not really what I ment, I cant remake somone elses map and a d-day may is most certainly going to be done alot!

keep it coming guys :D

Zao
03-23-2005, 06:40 AM
Actually, Random has a point. I can't recall ever having seen a brit-based beach map. I'm sure theres probably a few of them floating around out there, but we get bombarded with US beach maps. Gets to be routine after a while, you know.

Tostig
03-23-2005, 07:42 AM
I'm not a mapper, but I know what I likein a map, rather like how you don't have to be a mechanic to spot a good car. (I hope).

Firstly gameplay, which is dictated by both layout and cover. You need to herd the players into certain areas which are close enough to encourage combat, but don't hold up the map - either by using objectives or plain old walls. However don't make them too contsricting, give players side routes etc. A good idea is to make sure that every position is exposed from at least two directions, stopping someone setting up an MG and holding down the map.

Cover is extremely good if well done, but not if it clutters up the map. I dislike the honey-comb feeling of some buildings. It can be nice to go into buildings and work your way around side routes etc. but it can be daunting for new players to learn the map. However that said, spartan maps can get boring quickly, unless they're large enough. Try to encourage close fighting by offering rewards for it, be it a capture, fairly usefull cover on big maps etc.

Textures and lighting ought to match both eachother and the setting so that you can always make out a player, unless it's a place you intend to have camping at. Remember that your map is a setting for the action, and so shouldn't cry out "Look at me! Look at me!" every time, but rather just fit the area. Keep it realistic and toned down. Try and work around two colours, eg. green and brown.

Make objects that fit into the map, and not look out of place or contracting to what's already there. The occasional dead soldier, helmet etc. is cool, but not needed and can kill a map's fps. Try to make it fit into the scene - I'm always amazed at the ruined tank on flugpatz, which is a para map :confused:

As you plan a map, pay attention to the number of players you think it is aimed for. Large, open maps cry out for lots of players (dod_charlie, dod_caen etc.) while smaller, more compact ones are easier to play on with smaller teams or 8-12 or so (dod_merderet, dod_flash). The most popular maps seem to be those that strike a happy balance of around 20 players, like Ava or Kalt.

I'd recommend avoiding famous battles, but rather some ordinary place where players can actually imagine combat. For instance I prefer the idea of a map in which a small group goes out to capture a french farm to one set on Pegasus bridge, since the latter ultimately demand a very high level of quality and historical accuracy.

Lastly, I like a bit of the green stuff. This is entirely personal, but a sign that there was once a living and peaceful existance where the fighting is taking place, like in dod_flash, really means something to me. Give it a bit of battle damage if you want, just don't turn it into Stalingrad.

(Hurray for the extremely long post :))

travis
03-23-2005, 08:03 AM
yeah Zao, exactly right. CoD custom map juno beach is a really good map of course its made for cod gameplay and being juno beach its not your typical beach landing - the distance from the water to the seawall wasnt as far as you might think which leaves it wide open for a unique style beach map.

I might even attempt this when i get thru my backlog.

TheSurgeon
03-23-2005, 10:52 AM
Juno was actually the canadian beach. but either way it wouldn't make a good map if you recreated it accurately. juno is just flat land, no steep hills like omaha or gold, there's just a beach with sand dunes at the top, and a few bunkers. none of the other beach maps are really that accurate to the names they've been given though, so you could create a random made up beach map and call it dod_juno.

i was going to make a beach map, sort of based on juno with the beach leading directly into a town. but it's not easy to seal off the edges of the map, or get the proper layout. maybe i will try again one day.



but for my maps, i nearly always base them off something. google for some photos of places or just buildings. i made a map based on operation sealion for call of duty, just after i got back from a holiday to holyhead (a small island in wales), so i had a lot of ideas. i went to normandy last summer, so i have loads of photos and stuff of the towns and architecture there. and it's also easier to create something if you can see it, instead of trying to make something up from your mind as you go along
so something else you can do, that i usually do, is just make sketches. draw the map layout, and sketch ideas for buildings around the edge.

[oap]Agent_S
03-23-2005, 11:00 AM
Thanks again for the suggestions guys, I would like to clear up I am in no way short of ideas, what I want to do is make a map based on the wants of the community.

Ive already started playing with some of the ideas posted and its looking good, yes I sketch the whole map out before making it and for detailing I use photos etc with a touch of imagination.

Anyway please keep ideas coming of what you would like in the map

Watchtower
03-23-2005, 11:13 AM
keep in mind the first beta of dod:s is not expected to have british.

kt made a great list, I dont think anyone can dispute that. Balance and consistancy are the best points, imo. If you look at the dod maps right now, you'll notice these guys have that stuff down.

They use consistant brush sizes, textures, models, etc in their maps, and they come out with quality releases each time. Probably the most balanced and well thought out maps in any game I've played.

Although I did see alot of the same textures repeated on flash and avalanche for source, they were used well enough to not look too repitive.

--look no further than official maps, they set excellent standards for HL & HL2 in general.

josh_u[RR]
03-23-2005, 01:44 PM
killer tomato's list is right on. I'm fairly new to this but I'd say go with your own ideas. before I got into mapping, I had no idea what I wanted to see in a map afa locations, ect... take an idea and run with it, but allow things to change as you go. I think GL said that devastation started out completely different than it ended up. I started out trying to make a map based on the hogans heroes tv show. I've still got the prison camp, but everything else is way different. let the map evolve on its own.

cLouTieR
03-23-2005, 01:54 PM
i want a ctp style map of the cod's carentan .. its an amazing map and can be great fun for dod! and we need a harbor / trainyard

Jimmy Crack Corn
03-23-2005, 05:44 PM
1) How about a map where you have to get some document pack and take it back to your spawn exit and after that is done you have to cap a flag at the center of the map, make it a 2 or 3 person semi slow cap.

2) How about a map with 7 flags where at the initial spawn both teams spawn near the middle flag in the same building with a dividing wall that you can't shoot through. Then whoever has the middle flag at that point spawns there and the other team spawns near their first flag and gets to battle back.

JCC

travis
03-23-2005, 08:08 PM
smak ive done harbor and i believe you mean railyard. cod maps made exactly the same into dod maps wouldnt work on any day of the night, you need to mess around with them for a few reasons mainly gameplay and vis blocking.

[oap]Agent_S
03-24-2005, 06:36 AM
Based on the few suggestions I have I had a play last night and this is where I am at so far.

It based on a railway station area late at night with a full moon,
Allies start behind a raised road and will have to place C4 on fuel tankers when the DOD Fgd is out.

Anyway still early days but here are some screenies

http://www.jamesdon.plus.com/dod/station0000.jpg
http://www.jamesdon.plus.com/dod/station0001.jpg
http://www.jamesdon.plus.com/dod/station20000.jpg
http://www.jamesdon.plus.com/dod/station20001.jpg
http://www.jamesdon.plus.com/dod/station20002.jpg
http://www.jamesdon.plus.com/dod/station20003.jpg

killer tomato
03-24-2005, 08:29 AM
Looks good.
I suggest you get familliar with brushwork some more. There is a way you can morph your brushes to make them look far more realistic.

Looks good though. ;)

travis
03-24-2005, 09:53 AM
looks allright, that cooling tank its way too out of place - the toof on that building is pretty bad - the ceiling indoor could be a lot better but as you said - early days (:

[oap]Agent_S
03-24-2005, 09:54 AM
Thanks m8 I only made the hills with gensurf while im getting the layout right, ive replaced a few already with displacment brushes and its looking much better.

I just cant wait till DOD-S comes out and I've got to re-do all the textures :D

cLouTieR
03-24-2005, 12:14 PM
random - i realize they maps can not be directly ported over and then played to the style of play dod allows. which is why im asking for a skilled mapper to mess around with the maps and ideas to make some really good dod maps

travis
03-24-2005, 07:00 PM
yeah dude i know :P i was thinking of doing dawnville as an objective map but it will be a nightmare with vis D:

INsane_dod
03-24-2005, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Zao
Actually, Random has a point. I can't recall ever having seen a brit-based beach map. I'm sure theres probably a few of them floating around out there, but we get bombarded with US beach maps. Gets to be routine after a while, you know.

What about some fexability in some maps?

It's a request we all hear now and again that there isn't enough British troop maps or something else about a map some a lot of players or group of players... don't like.

How about using the "changelevel" command. Why not use it more on on-line servers? Especially those that have a vote map function.

Using another "level" and some custom wads and models, it paints quite a different scene.... British going down the hill of Avalanche. (http://users.bigpond.net.au/clannwh/dod_avalanche0050.jpg) It also changes gameplay because the spawns are now reversed.

See the bottom of the post for more info of the files used in this level of ava.


If a mapper makes a map maybe they can release another .wad and .bsp latter? Sort of like a "directors cut" or a "UK only version" in movies. (I am not from the UK BTW just using this as an example as I did with Zao's post)


Some UK servers may only like to play the level in that pic, (Brits vs Axis Para with brits spawning at the top of ava), with the way the Steam DoD version downloads maps now, placing those custom files needed on another "level", is possible with Steams download capability? If not maybe it should be?


So to recap...

1. Why not use "changelevel" more on dod maps online, to create another map "version", even when requiring "downloadable" custom wads and dare I say, models... can it be done?

2. Using these ava files as an example, is it possible to say, after Axis has capped out a number of times, it can trigger another level changing gameplay, like the Brits vs Axis para reversed spawns in the pic?



Just an idea of what is possible... brought around by playing too many rounds of ava and getting pounded as allies, then getting slightly bored with it :)

But I still love the original ava, Axis or Allies, one of DoD's best maps, and a favoite of mine.


The "reversed spawns" Avalanche files...

The .wad in the pic is from the DoD Editing Center (http://dodec.hlgaming.com/main.html) and is called ez's Avalanche .wad V2 (http://dodec.hlgaming.com/filedb/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1438) and the .bsp files made by "pope" reverse the spawn areas. Details of those .bsp files can be found in this forum. (http://dodmaps.ngz-network.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=351&sid=b92cc4e9decb8de6da03aabe1cacf8a5
)

I made some "reversed waypoints" and instructions in a little zip file (http://users.bigpond.net.au/clannwh/Reversed Avalanche Spawn points for Shrikebot NO BSP version.zip) if you want to play these levels on a LAN with ShirkeBot, (http://shrikebot.bots-united.com/download.htm) but you will also need to get the .bsp files from here (http://dodmaps.ngz-network.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=351&sid=b92cc4e9decb8de6da03aabe1cacf8a5
) because I don't have the space online. There is a readme in the zip for putting it all together like the level in the pic.

travis
03-25-2005, 02:05 AM
without spending half an hour writing a pst ill say most people dont like brits so how is it that one can be expected to make a british map which wont be liked as uch as if it were USA.

toss up, ive seen some great maps that are brits that people like reguardless *cough*density.

The map im working on atm will include yank,brit,day,night versions, seeing who responds to what better. I know it seems like a lot of versions but i believe it will aid greatly in the testing process.

Ginger Lord
03-25-2005, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by RaNd0M

toss up, ive seen some great maps that are brits that people like reguardless *cough*density.



Thats because the gameplay suits the British style. There is no need for defence on the British front so the lack of a "true MG" that people go on about doesn't matter. The Brens easily take care of any Mg's set up and the only advantage after that is the hill slope.

Pierog
03-25-2005, 03:09 AM
most maps are in dire need of some hawt ladies

killer tomato
03-25-2005, 03:15 AM
You're looking in the wrong places.

travis
03-25-2005, 03:42 AM
play duke3d for naked ladies!

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