Im not sure if this is the right place to ask this, hehe... But

How will ladders work in DoD: Source?

Will we be able to make old-style ladders, like in Counter-Strike: Source?

Or it will work only with "Source Ladders" like HL2/HL2DM?

I particularly hated the Source Ladders...

Never played hl2 or any of that, what are source ladders like, bf1942?

Well, i'll try to make it simple...

In the old-style ladders, u create a brush in front of your ladder(brush, or model) and set it as an entity called "func_ladder" and that works as a ladder... Like in HL1 engine...

In HL2, for some parts of the game, the old-style ladder wouldnt fit... So, tro create a ladder, u create the brush/model of your ladder, then create an entity called func_usableladder, it has the same size of the info_player_start, so in the 2-d view, u click and hold a circle in the middle of the entity... And stretch it whatever you want to be the end of your ladder... Then you create entitys called info_ladder_dismount in the input and output of the ladder...

you can see how it works better here:

http://www.akilling.org/akg/tutorials/wiseladder.asp

but, in this kind of ledder, u climb to fast, and its hard to control...

And when you get to the end of the ledder you automatically are ejected to where the info_ledder_dismout is...

That way its hard to control the climbing...

I could never get the "source" style ladder to work, hopefully both methods will be available.

I use the oldstyle, the new one is too weirded :P the on/off points are bad.

You don't have to use the sdk example...I have a few that are just the ladder entity...take a look at the cbble sdk map...simple ladders...not that crazy deal with all the entities...I think that's more for NPC players in SP or w/bots than anything else.

Ahh kk, misunderstood =P

I'm trying not to have any unnecessary ladders in my map, stairs all the way.

Either way, they hardly fit in 2005 game :-\.

I had no problem with Source ladders and I don't find them confusing either, they just take more work to do then it took in HL1.

BTW...try and make your entire map without ladders if you can. Uswe creative ways to move people over things...like the box-deal coming out of the spawns in Flugplatz...stairs, ramps, strategically placed wooden slats, rubble you can climb over or hop over, barrels to hop up on, etc.

Here's what you want to be able to do...run from one end of your map to the other along the critical path without having to do nary a hop, skip, or jump to reach all your objectives. Sure...you can add in a sequece of boxes to get to a higher spot...or perhaps a ladder to get up into a church tower...but keep the main combat area's free of stuff you can get hooked on.

Another thing...when you put door frames, door models that do not work (static doors), window frames, etc...use the "Not Solid" option....DO NOT choose "Use Vphysics". For inanimate objects that you will brush against that are not meant to be things that should stop your movement (like sandbags, or hedgehogs for example) please, please, please...use Not Solid...the last thing you want is to be running down a hallway with fake window models and fake door models along the side of the wall and you hook into them and herky-jerk your way along the hall.

I noticed in the hl2 lockdown vmf that a player clip brush was used to prevent (i guess) herky jerk from bits of wall that stuck out slightly etc. what exactly are these player clip brushes for.

I also noticed that in hl2dm when going down a ladder, you will not dismount the ladder unless you press jump.
On counter strike you will dismount if you just continue to press backpedal (down)

Whats the difference, if any.

I hope to see the "cs style" in dod:s personally, I don't like the hl2dm method too much.

the player clip brush is like an invisable brush that only prevents the player from passing through it. Weapons and debris ect will go through it but u wont. Like u said it's to stop people from getting stuck on things, and also stop people from exploiting the map.

i've always used the player clip way in my maps for call of duty and mohaa. if i had small pillars sticking out a wall down a corridor like supporting beams in an underground tunnel or something like this:

___::_____::____

i just make trapezium shaped clip brushes so if you walk along the wall, you just get smoothly pushed away from the pillars. but grenades and anything else besides players will still act as normal.


i'd prefer normal ladders. i don't have a problem making the new style of ladders, but there are problems with them and i don't think they were really made for MP. i had some in a map i made called dm_harbour and when you go the bottom, which was on a displacement beach, you just had to keep looking around all over the floor while pressing forward to get off. i do think it'd be better if you had to face forwards while using ladders until you go to the top or bottom, and if in 3rd person there was a proper animation, instead of vertically running up a wall, while still holding a gun with 2 hands. something like bf42, except that in that game all the lag makes ladders, especially getting on one from the top, a lethal experience.

my apologies, I have somehow failed to read the initial post properly.
I was asking what difference if any there was between the hl2dm ladder and those seen in counter-strike source.
obviously there is a difference.
I hear there is also another type of "ladder" that would be used to create the effect of climbing vines going up a wall or whatever, which entity is this?

I have some crates, freshly unloaded from a ship, piled up next to some sea defences in a town I was working on, worked quite well.

Originally posted by FuzzDad
take a look at the cbble sdk map...simple ladders

Like I said, in CSS you can use the old-style ladders, but you cant in HL2... And I was asking if in DoD: Source we could use or not the old-style... Or only the new Style would be avaiable...

Originally posted by FuzzDad

Another thing...when you put door frames, door models that do not work (static doors), window frames, etc...use the "Not Solid" option....DO NOT choose "Use Vphysics". For inanimate objects that you will brush against that are not meant to be things that should stop your movement (like sandbags, or hedgehogs for example) please, please, please...use Not Solid...the last thing you want is to be running down a hallway with fake window models and fake door models along the side of the wall and you hook into them and herky-jerk your way along the hall.

1. Objects like sandbags and hedgehogs are not meant to be things that should stop your movement?

2. Using Vphysics for a prop_static doesnt have any odd effects like you described.

Originally posted by FuzzDad
BTW...try and make your entire map without ladders if you can. Uswe creative ways to move people over things...like the box-deal coming out of the spawns in Flugplatz...stairs, ramps, strategically placed wooden slats, rubble you can climb over or hop over, barrels to hop up on, etc.

Here's what you want to be able to do...run from one end of your map to the other along the critical path without having to do nary a hop, skip, or jump to reach all your objectives. Sure...you can add in a sequece of boxes to get to a higher spot...or perhaps a ladder to get up into a church tower...but keep the main combat area's free of stuff you can get hooked on.

Another thing...when you put door frames, door models that do not work (static doors), window frames, etc...use the "Not Solid" option....DO NOT choose "Use Vphysics". For inanimate objects that you will brush against that are not meant to be things that should stop your movement (like sandbags, or hedgehogs for example) please, please, please...use Not Solid...the last thing you want is to be running down a hallway with fake window models and fake door models along the side of the wall and you hook into them and herky-jerk your way along the hall.

Thanks for the advice Fuzzy

In this area of my dod map im working on



I'll make the scaffolding collapsed on the end instead of having a ladder.

If it's realistic to have a ladder somewhere, then you should have a ladder there.

Keep ladders to a minimum...only use if it's really pluasible to have one there. In a factory you'd expect some...but you'd more expect to see scafolding and metal stairs, etc. Here's the deal...if you see a ladder in a place you would not normally see one...and it's being used just to get you up to some other place...then that's cheap and not very accurate (de_cbble comes to mind).

Firemen carry ladders...not usually soldiers. Be true to a realistic environment and put something creative you can clamour over instead of a ladder.

As to the earlier poster about Vphysics not having the properties I described...most models have a vphysics model associated with them...if they do then you will be stopped by them...bullets will be stopped by some. So if you have a hallway with non-opening doors in them, or doorframes w/o a door that have vphysics characteristics you will hit them and hang on them. The old way to fix this was to clip out the model so your path along the hallway was smooth. Now at least you can take these thin models and turn off their vphysics. You don't want to do this for larger, thicker models because then your player model could be hidden inside.

Another thing...if your model or entity has a "sleep" option use it if you can...it uses less engine cycles (from what I've been told).

Originally posted by Pierog
Thanks for the advice Fuzzy

In this area of my dod map im working on



I'll make the scaffolding collapsed on the end instead of having a ladder.


Very nice...would fit in my old dod_factory map...I love the "industrial look"...we need a good map based in a factory or some kind of industrial park (dod_koln, dod_factory, dod_fabrik...stuff like that)

Originally posted by FuzzDad
you will hit them and hang on them

Hang on them? What do you mean?

Of course you'll hit them. If it's a solid object, shouldnt it block your movement?

Originally posted by Dwin
Hang on them? What do you mean?

Of course you'll hit them. If it's a solid object, shouldnt it block your movement?

Good lord dude...game design 101: "Do not allow players to get hung up on or stopped by simple objects like a door frame or small extrusion in a hallway"

Game design is partly a magicians act. We try and give you a nice-looking map but we also trick you all the time. I'll put it this way...a light switch sticking one inch from a wall will stop your movement in-game. A door in a hallway that is just a prop to make it look like there's a room behind it sticks out 1 inch into the hallway...lf you run along that wall and hit the door you are stopped cold. We mappers try and avoid things like that. Go into Glider...go to the red hallway to the bunker...try and get hung up on the support posts on either side...you can't...because I clipped them out w/invisible wall so you can smoothly run down the hall.

Game design is a combination of realistic-looking things coupled with tricks to keep gameplay going...some things you want objects to be stopped by and somethings you don't. It's the way every game is made these days.

Originally posted by FuzzDad
A door in a hallway that is just a prop to make it look like there's a room behind it sticks out 1 inch into the hallway...lf you run along that wall and hit the door you are stopped cold. .

Okay, you didnt need three paragraphs. I know about all that. I just got confused as to what kind of object you were talking about. A lightswitch, I understand, but a sandbag or hedgehog? Why shouldnt that stop a player's movement?

Originally posted by FuzzDad
For inanimate objects that you will brush against that are not meant to be things that should stop your movement (like sandbags, or hedgehogs for example)

I think he means when you walk around them. nothing more annoying than trying to go around something and having some 1 unit edge sticking out somewhere holding you up. you should be able to run into something then basically slide your way off of it easily without having to backpedal 15 times trying to miss whatever is hanging you up.

Originally posted by josh_u[RR]
I think he means when you walk around them. nothing more annoying than trying to go around something and having some 1 unit edge sticking out somewhere holding you up. you should be able to run into something then basically slide your way off of it easily without having to backpedal 15 times trying to miss whatever is hanging you up.

Like I said, I understand, but a sandbag or a hedgehog should stop player movement.

Originally posted by FuzzDad


As to the earlier poster about Vphysics not having the properties I described...most models have a vphysics model associated with them...if they do then you will be stopped by them...bullets will be stopped by some. So if you have a hallway with non-opening doors in them, or doorframes w/o a door that have vphysics characteristics you will hit them and hang on them. The old way to fix this was to clip out the model so your path along the hallway was smooth. Now at least you can take these thin models and turn off their vphysics. You don't want to do this for larger, thicker models because then your player model could be hidden inside.



Hmmm...

but then isnt it possible to use the model as a possible exploit, such as hiding yourself in the model since it wont clip you. I know a door frame wouldn't hide you completely but im guessing someone could prone and have their weapon hidden in the model giving them an advantage... although seperate calucations for weapon clipping doesnt exist ... anyway you know what i mean.

Never mind. I give up. I don't know why I even post in these forums anymore. Pick up hammer...make a map...do it yourself. I never said not to clip out sandbags and hedgehogs...go back and re-read my original post.