Have a small question relating to the NULL

suppose we have only a box as a map.

If I covered faces that are touching each other (i.e. sides of the sides that make up the box) I'll get lower r_speeds.

Now my question is: if I cover the outside of the box (the sides of the brushes the player doesn't see and are showing when looking from the void toward the map), would my r_speeds get even lower????

I'm very cautious not to get any leaks in my map dod_insula. So i just want to know if covering litteraly every side of a brush except the one that the player can see, would be harmless or not.

All faces except those that are exposed to the interior are removed (EXCEPT FOR ENTITIES!). NULL is only efficient on the faces exposed to the interior. You will not get a leak for placing NULL textures.

When you say "sides of the sides" do you mean something like mitered edges? ... if so then No, you don't lower your r_speeds.

If not then can you try to explane please .. I don't understand :confused:

If putting the NULL on the outside of the Box doesn't cause a leak then it should at least make a smaller BSP file.

thx for help xerent.

question is: does putting the null texture on the outside of the box help lower r_speeds inside the box??

reducing the size of the BSP is also a plus :)

Originally posted by Inch
question is: does putting the null texture on the outside of the box help lower r_speeds inside the box??


No.

Null will only reduce r_speeds for the faces it removes and the player can see.

e.g
You have a great big oblong tower and you put the NULL texture on the top. This will not reduce r_speed at all as the face in question is never seen by any player during the game.

And yes the BSP file is reduced in size, I just tried that one :)

if u place the null texture on the outside (on the sky box) it will cause this mirror effect thing, i tried its kind of werid... doesnt help r_speeds at all so dont do it.

When a map is compiled, the outside faces of the box are all removed anyway. Placing null on the outside might be a good idea though with large maps as it might speed up compile times, considering that null faces are ignored for the most part during the compile. Q3 mappers do the same thing, they add the caulk texture to all faces facing the void, it dramatically speeds up compile times.

Yes they are all removed and everything, but who here trusts the HL engine to do what its supposed to rasie your arms...





anyone...




see my point. It isnt nessercary but it's like a double check just in case. If you get a leak and you have those faces covered with null its not gonna punch your r_speeds beyond your computer so you cant leak trace, and have to recompile multiple times.

thx for enlighten me on the many unknown parts of the mysterious NULL texture :)

the mirror thing I'm acquinted with. ;)

Originally posted by Mikeleo
if u place the null texture on the outside (on the sky box) it will cause this mirror effect thing, i tried its kind of werid... doesnt help r_speeds at all so dont do it.


I tried it and it was fine :confused:

The only thing it did was reduce the size of the BSP. r_speeds were the same ... as expected.

the HOM (hall of mirrors) effect happens when you have a nulled face visible to the player and the only tihng he can see past it would be void. its not so much an error but it working properly.

Yes they are all removed and everything, but who here trusts the HL engine to do what its supposed to rasie your arms...





anyone...




see my point. It isnt nessercary but it's like a double check just in case. If you get a leak and you have those faces covered with null its not gonna punch your r_speeds beyond your computer so you cant leak trace, and have to recompile multiple times.

*raises hand*

I'd trust my left nut to the HL engine man. I'm a noob so I'm probably making a mistake, but i know that, compared to some other engines, the HL engine is pretty simple.

Originally posted by Angry Beaver
the HOM (hall of mirrors) effect happens when you have a nulled face visible to the player and the only tihng he can see past it would be void. its not so much an error but it working properly.

I know what the HOM effect is, I've seen it plenty of times whilst messing around with my own maps :)

What I was saying was when I put the NULL texture on the outside of a sky box I don't see the HOM effect when Mikeleo says he does.

I don't have a problem with this but some other people migth see the contradiction and be non the wiser :(

Use null as your base texture...so every brush you create is a null brush first. Only texture those brushes that the player can see while playing normally (not on low grav for instance). Compile and go into your map as spectator. Fly around and make sure you've used null on every face that is not visable. An example: You build a building...the flat roof does not touch the sky...the player cannot "see" the top in normal game conditions...null that face. Other places to use: You make a func_wall and it 100% covers a a regular face on a regular brush...put null on that face.

Put null on things like door bottoms and tops (if you can get away with that). Every box in your map should have a null bottom. If you place your box in a corner and you cannot see the sides of the box that are against the wall...null those sides. If you use func_walls to attach complicated brushes (like columns) to regular brushes...null the faces on the part of the complicated brush that touches the func_wall (like the column bottoms in Caen). Put null on the tops of things that a normal player couldn't see...the tops of buildings, radio antennas, debris that's high up on a wall, the back sides of things that are in the map to add depth (like a see-thru fence that keeps you out of an area (like in avalanche).

I also make sure I use null on all sky-touching faces if possible...it might not reduce r_speeds but it does (as mentioned previously) cut compile times.

thx for the tip Fuzzdad!! It's well worth's it's weight in gold!

rest assured that everthing FuzzDad says will reduce the size of the BSP and as stated should reduce compile times (I havn.t tested that) but won't reduce r_speed in anyway what so ever when you play the map.

As the faces he mentions are never seen by players, therefore they are never rendered in the first palce.

one thing - don't think you should NULL the outside of the SKY brushes - or they may not give off light. they may, but they may not too - for SKY to give off light (according to light env insturctions) ALL sides should be SKY texture.

dunno why, the outside faces get removed anyway, but it seems to be that way.

Originally posted by haircut
rest assured that everthing FuzzDad says will reduce the size of the BSP and as stated should reduce compile times (I havn.t tested that) but won't reduce r_speed in anyway what so ever when you play the map.

As the faces he mentions are never seen by players, therefore they are never rendered in the first palce.

Not so my young padawan...putting null on faces you can't see very well like the sides of boxes facing a wall but not touching it...or the bottoms of doors not touching the floor does reduce r_speeds (the one unit above the ground principle)...go to spectate and you can see those faces drawn...so the engine "thinks" it should draw them and does. Nulling them will help...not as much as good map design...but it will help.

Ohh...you can also null water textures...the sides and bottom...but I think you need zoners compiling executables to do so (there's soooo much about mapping I really don't know about)

I think you are misunderstanding what you are seeing. I have looked at this may times before, now and in the past. Any face that is not in direct line-of-sight by players is not drawn by the Half-Life engine.

In one of my posts I mentioned an oblong tower. If that tower is not touching the sky then the top face of that tower is still never drawn by the Half-Life engine and so will never add to your r_speed. The only time you will see it is if you spectate and fly up there to go take a look at it.

The one-unit-trick is another thing altogether. Like I said if you have a box on a flat floor with the NULL on the bottom and you move the box up one unit from the floor and still have the NULL on the bottom of the box then your r_speed ain't reduced due to the NULL it's reduced because you have less cutting up of the floor. (Only if your box wasn't something like a func_wall)

NOTE: There are lots of situations where using the NULL texture will work. I just haven't found any that are that useful.

Originally posted by FuzzDad
Use null as your base texture...so every brush you create is a null brush first. Only texture those brushes that the player can see while playing normally (not on low grav for instance). Compile and go into your map as spectator. Fly around and make sure you've used null on every face that is not visable. An example: You build a building...the flat roof does not touch the sky...the player cannot "see" the top in normal game conditions...null that face. Other places to use: You make a func_wall and it 100% covers a a regular face on a regular brush...put null on that face.

Put null on things like door bottoms and tops (if you can get away with that). Every box in your map should have a null bottom. If you place your box in a corner and you cannot see the sides of the box that are against the wall...null those sides. If you use func_walls to attach complicated brushes (like columns) to regular brushes...null the faces on the part of the complicated brush that touches the func_wall (like the column bottoms in Caen). Put null on the tops of things that a normal player couldn't see...the tops of buildings, radio antennas, debris that's high up on a wall, the back sides of things that are in the map to add depth (like a see-thru fence that keeps you out of an area (like in avalanche).

I also make sure I use null on all sky-touching faces if possible...it might not reduce r_speeds but it does (as mentioned previously) cut compile times.

Exactly the method i use

It is actually much faster and easier then going back and nulling after u make you map

boxes facing a wall but not touching it...or the bottoms of doors not touching the floor does reduce r_speeds (the one unit above the ground principle)...go to spectate and you can see those faces drawn...

I just thought I'd comment on this to clarify a few things. I realised what you were talking about in the end.

FuzzDad is talking about Boxes and doors :). these boxes and doors will be entites (fun_door_rotating and fuc_wall). He is correct in this case, NULL texturing the unseen sides of entities like this will reduce r_speeds as the unseen faces are rendered.

If the box isn't a fuc_wall then the unseen faces are never rendered so NULL texturiing them won't reduce r_speeds.

I'm sorry for the confusion Fuzzdad gave me ;) If he had said the boxes were fun_walls I'd of got it a lot quicker :)