I am curious so with the new models and the way they are formed by submodels. Does this mean that every single infantry model must have two types of legs, one hat, one helmet, two types of tops, etc. Is there any possible way to set a different submodel for each class? So like ever class has different leg textures, or different leg models. I don't quite understand what the new models limit us to and is there any other option that could be done to get around this?

i wish i knew, but good idea making this thread, maybe everyone can come together to make a way around all this

the only ppl it limits are those who don't take the time to understand how sub-models work.

RTFM

kthanxbai

I'll try and break down what each group of sub models do here, if I make any mistakes I'm sure someone else can point them out.

There appear to be four groups of sub-models in a player model:

Body - This appears to contain the basic body, there are six sub-groups across this group, but only one seems to have anything at all, possibly there in case they decide at a later date to add more variations.

Helmet - Here we have whatever headgear the player model wears, as well as what-ever you see when the helmet is blown off. I'm not sure exactly how this one works, since there are helmets, as well as hair of various colors, which leads me to believe there is some connection to the head group. There are several stocking caps for the americans, though, so I'm not sure exactly what's going on there.

Head - Pretty straight foreward, these are the various heads, seven in all, possibly chosen at random, but probably some link with the helmet group regarding hair color.

Gear - This is the interesting one here, gear is unique for each class, and as such is specifically chosen depending on the class that is used. What you can do, is make the body sub group blank, and add your own body for each gear group, and you'll have unique player models for each class. However, I'm unclear how exactly the head an helmet groups work, so there could be some problems with that.

Originally posted by Trigger
Body - This appears to contain the basic body, there are six sub-groups across this group, but only one seems to have anything at all, possibly there in case they decide at a later date to add more variations.

Actually I disagree. If you notice, there's only 2 body styles for the Americans, they just alternate for all the slots. On a hunch I counted and the number of body groups with polygons in em is equal to the number of different weapons for the US. So group 1 is for the Rifleman, group 2 is the Seargent, 3 is the sniper, 4 is the Support, and 5 is the MG'er. On the Axis infantry, they filled up all 6 slots because the K43 and the KAR98 have two different player models. Which is why they all have the base number of 6, so that they could recycle the code for selecting submodels becuse the numbers were the same.

Helmet - Here we have whatever headgear the player model wears, as well as what-ever you see when the helmet is blown off. I'm not sure exactly how this one works, since there are helmets, as well as hair of various colors, which leads me to believe there is some connection to the head group. There are several stocking caps for the americans, though, so I'm not sure exactly what's going on there.
Head - Pretty straight foreward, these are the various heads, seven in all, possibly chosen at random, but probably some link with the helmet group regarding hair color.


Most likely the helmet is chosen by class, and the hair and head are chosen randomly (or maybe not so much) to match each other. I'm guessing the stocking caps are to add a bit of spice to the models by keeping things random.

Gear - This is the interesting one here, gear is unique for each class, and as such is specifically chosen depending on the class that is used. What you can do, is make the body sub group blank, and add your own body for each gear group, and you'll have unique player models for each class. However, I'm unclear how exactly the head an helmet groups work, so there could be some problems with that.

Yeah, you can. I'm not 100% sure of everything else because I can't play 1.0 yet, not until Sturmbot is released. All I can do is analyze and guess. So even if I'm wrong with everything above, we at least know we have this option if we want to make models unique to the class (like me).

You're right there about the bodies, I just was looking at the wrong models when I made my deductions.

It seems also that everything is far less random than I first suspected. While looking through the sub groups for the axis infantry, I noticed that only one head sub-model had forearms for the k43 model, which is the only to have short sleves.

This little discovery leads me to believe that every sub-group is chosen specifically based on class. There must be something I'm missing, since if there isn't any randomness at all, I fail to see the point of seperating everything up into so many sub-groups. However, this desn't change the fact that you can still replace the gear sub-models with full characters, and make everything else blank. Except, of course, for the Helmets, which would need to remain seperate sub-models to properly be blown off.

Overall, the only real limitation sub-models create is the fact that custom models have to be released as entire teams, instead of individual classes. That, and picking and choosing each class from different sets will be considerably more difficult for the average user.

Originally posted by Trigger
I'll try and break down what each group of sub models do here, if I make any mistakes I'm sure someone else can point them out.

There appear to be four groups of sub-models in a player model:

Body - This appears to contain the basic body, there are six sub-groups across this group, but only one seems to have anything at all, possibly there in case they decide at a later date to add more variations.

Helmet - Here we have whatever headgear the player model wears, as well as what-ever you see when the helmet is blown off. I'm not sure exactly how this one works, since there are helmets, as well as hair of various colors, which leads me to believe there is some connection to the head group. There are several stocking caps for the americans, though, so I'm not sure exactly what's going on there.

Head - Pretty straight foreward, these are the various heads, seven in all, possibly chosen at random, but probably some link with the helmet group regarding hair color.

Gear - This is the interesting one here, gear is unique for each class, and as such is specifically chosen depending on the class that is used. What you can do, is make the body sub group blank, and add your own body for each gear group, and you'll have unique player models for each class. However, I'm unclear how exactly the head an helmet groups work, so there could be some problems with that.

Head - head, neck, and hands.. (In the k43 guy's case, arms as well).. this was so that the skin tone matched with the different faces.

Helmet - this includes helmets and hair. Since you don't have to render hair and a helmet at once, these are in the same group. When a player's helmet gets shot off, it switches from the helmet subroup to the hair subgroup appropriate to the "head" subgroup. (Get all that?:)

Gear - every class has its own gear setup. Good idea about making this the 'body' group - in this case you could make a whole new setup for each class, rather than having 7 classes share 2 bodies.

btw, nothing is random.. each class has its own specific face and hair..

Billy how do we compile player models?
it always says too many events or another error.

Originally posted by molotov_billy
btw, nothing is random.. each class has its own specific face and hair..

will later versions ever have random faces, etc. just to give a variety in the troops, i think it would be kinda cool

this may take up too much visual memory but have kinda random uniforms, for example the light infantry would have a uniform that is real neat and stuff and then another would be the same uniform but things shoved in the pockets and the gear is rearranged.

hmm i think its a good idea :D

So Im curious, if you turned the gear submodels into the auctual body of the class. If you added the helmet to the gear would it still be possible to get the helmet flying off effect?

Originally posted by DANZA
Billy how do we compile player models?
it always says too many events or another error.

i'll get pie-u's compiler tomorrow

THANKS JJ.
Make a release thread tommorow then.

Originally posted by Safeh
will later versions ever have random faces, etc. just to give a variety in the troops, i think it would be kinda cool

this may take up too much visual memory but have kinda random uniforms, for example the light infantry would have a uniform that is real neat and stuff and then another would be the same uniform but things shoved in the pockets and the gear is rearranged.

hmm i think its a good idea :D



we probably wouldn't do that.. we chose our current system so that people could identify different classes by looking at them.. (not by what gun they carried)..

if we DID change the system, we would allow players to pick their uniform, headgear, and face.. (if they wanted to)

fun fun

that would be kind of cool as to what gear you pick, and it effects movement. The more equipment you have the slower you go, but it might help you in the long run *nods head*

Thanks for the replies Billy, it's always great when a member of the dev team gives feedback to the community. :)

Well, you arent neccesarily limited to just the submodles you are given.

In the case of all 3 para modles I've made, the E&C FJ, the ss v3 para model, and the 82nd airborne troops, you can make each class have his owqn look or sytle without just filling the submodle groups. You can do this by combining all the parts into ONE submodel, i.e. Bar.smd is the bar gunner in total, head helm and body.

Then, you can jsut arrange all the classes smd in order in the qc under body grouping, and paly with the order till you get it right. And by right I eman the guy with the mp40 is indeed using the mp40 submodel.

An easy way to do that is to make the different modle groups, and color each one with a complete bright color. Pink, red, blue, cyan. Then go ingame, and instead of inspecting the gear to see if you got it right, jsut remember what color was using what gun.

If the pink guy ahd an mp40, and pink was the first submodle in your list, you know you need to put the mp40 gunner's submodel first.

You can compile a list of what order, and fit your submodels to it. Its worked for me in 3.1, i bet it will work again.

Originally posted by molotov_billy
we probably wouldn't do that.. we chose our current system so that people could identify different classes by looking at them.. (not by what gun they carried)..

if we DID change the system, we would allow players to pick their uniform, headgear, and face.. (if they wanted to)

fun fun

well the way i was talking about it would be the same uniform but one would be clean and one would be scruffed up and war torn but still resemble the other uniform

but yeah it is still good the way it is

That's kind of the same thing I was saying Devin, by just replacing the gear models with full characters. You'd still need to use the sub-models for helmets, though, if you wanted the to fly off, just make the hair models blank.

As far as your process of determining the proper sub-group for each class, it seems unnecessarily complex to me. All you have to do is find out which gear group goes to each class, easy enough to do, just look at the sub-models, and replace those with the characters you want. Then just replace every other sub-model but the helmets with blank smd's, and you've got unique models for each class.

Originally posted by molotov_billy
Head - head, neck, and hands.. (In the k43 guy's case, arms as well).. this was so that the skin tone matched with the different faces.

Helmet - this includes helmets and hair. Since you don't have to render hair and a helmet at once, these are in the same group. When a player's helmet gets shot off, it switches from the helmet subroup to the hair subgroup appropriate to the "head" subgroup. (Get all that?:)

Gear - every class has its own gear setup. Good idea about making this the 'body' group - in this case you could make a whole new setup for each class, rather than having 7 classes share 2 bodies.

Okay, thanks a lot for clearing all this up for us, Billy. Does that mean the stocking caps are for specific classes as well?

Originally posted by Trigger
That's kind of the same thing I was saying Devin, by just replacing the gear models with full characters. You'd still need to use the sub-models for helmets, though, if you wanted the to fly off, just make the hair models blank.

As far as your process of determining the proper sub-group for each class, it seems unnecessarily complex to me. All you have to do is find out which gear group goes to each class, easy enough to do, just look at the sub-models, and replace those with the characters you want. Then just replace every other sub-model but the helmets with blank smd's, and you've got unique models for each class.

Don't even need a blank SMD, just type 'blank' in the open slot and there you go.

Good point Cheeto, hadn't even thought of that.

Would it be possible to specify more than the default number of sub-models and still have those used? I was wondering about this for the helmet models specifically, because I can think of times where I would want to use more than the number of helmets specified in the mdl file, the Fallshirmjager is a good example. I doubt it's possible, but it'd be neat none the less.

Well, yeah, thats what i emant by blank.

And FYI, if you set your bodys to be the gear submodels, their legs wont move. I think it has to be somethign with the beln animations.

Originally posted by Trigger
Would it be possible to specify more than the default number of sub-models and still have those used? I was wondering about this for the helmet models specifically, because I can think of times where I would want to use more than the number of helmets specified in the mdl file, the Fallshirmjager is a good example. I doubt it's possible, but it'd be neat none the less.

Don't think so because which submodels are selected is controlled by the game's own code. If you change the order of the listings, then you confuse the game, same thing that happens if you screw up the order of the animations.

if you rip apart the model there are ref.smd for all the classes and gear just (heavy.smd , heay_gear.smd...ect). so its easy to use. i've been usein sub models in fa for some time know so i know how to used the prettey good if you need help pm me and i'll see what i can do.