probably my second failed attempt at mapping, but its only about half-way done. so maybe i still have time to save it.

http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/

there are the screenshots of the allied side of the map.. not much done on the axis yet. i've almost got everything completed to the center (with no detail added yet except a few unclipped models just for testing purposes) - i will be updating the screen shots as i work.

i would love to hear criticism.. and i may possibly give the map out for someone to run through if i see it fit. you can see the first map i made here: http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_weimar.zip - the proportions were pretty far off.. anyways, just take a look and give me your initial feedback :P

EDIT: the buildings without roof's aren't done, the buildings that are white with wood X's are ones i haven't worked on. the newer screenshots are prefixed with 000's.

Look promising :)

What kind of map will it be: capture objectives or destroy targets?
Break the corridor stait line by moving the building apart to add hiding places.
Put crates, tanks, rubbles anything to add cover.

Keep up the good work, you are not the only one who struggle with there first map :D .


Btw i'm sure IR will give you a ton of good insight on your work.

thanks for the quick reply :P Its going to be a capture the flag map, it will have 5 flags. 1 flag is located near each spawn point, one on each side of the map, and one in the center. i want to make the left side of the map (where there is a trench-style trying to emerge) into a trench-like zone with sandbags, barbwire, and maybe a bunker. it is a pretty simple layout, but there are plenty of ways to go, the layout is a lot like donner's however, and im trying to make it different in some way.. it still has lots of work.

just one question, what do you mean by the 'corridor strait line'? are you talking about the spot by the hanging clothes?

Yes, just a space between the building or a doorway will do or make one of the house a bit larger, it will create a hiding spot and it will be less a strait line.

some pictures look good, while others look bland. try adding some "extras" in boring areas and try to give us an overview. I only looked about 10 of the pictures (in random).

like i said, i have added very little detail, and only half of the map is finished. but yes i very much agree that it is very bland. it will be hard adding detail as i haven't done that yet (gave up on weimar before i got to the detail part). peezwee: got ya :P ill seperate the building on the left side in the screenshot (blue-ish with grey) away from the building next to it and add a place to hide in that corner.

I'll be waiting for you there :p :D

lol :D

yah, well, some stuff is looking really good. keep it up and keep wipping out new pics :)

ill update tomorrow, when i have the time to. im gonna head off to watch a movie then im gonna sleep. i plan on working on the other half (the axis side) of the map, and ill take some screenshots of the work in progress of that :)

thanks again for everyone who has commented thus far!

No port. No sea. Nothing unique to say it's like Calais.

Looking pretty nice, keep us updated.

well, calais is really just a name, i know its a french town, but its not meant to BE that french town. i just couldn't think of any other names :\

that gives me a thought though, since this map is still in early stages i could still make it like the real town. i found this little passage on calais:

"It was the scene of a last-ditch defence in 1940 that allowed the defeated British forces to be evacuated from nearby Dunkirk. 3,000 British and 800 French troops, assisted by Royal Navy warships, held out from 22-27 May 1940 against two German panzer divisions. The town was flattened by round-the-clock bombing and only 30 of the 3,800-strong defencing force were evacuated before the town fell."

i could probably have the objectives be something to do with that.. i dont know how i would have it work though. i guess i could have a timer and the allies have to hold the town before the time runs out. i dunno

1403 portalleafs
4243 numportals
BasePortalVis:
(5.31 seconds)
LeafThread:
(2694.53 seconds)
average leafs visible: 250
g_visdatasize:158033 compressed from 246928

is it normal for leafthread to take that long? (with no errors)

What are you compiling with?

batch compiler with zoners tools

new screenshots:

http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais0018.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais0019.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais0020.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais0021.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais0022.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais0023.jpg

and an overview (not everything is done yet):

http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais_overview.jpg

i also did a run-around of my map, and found that the r_speeds are generally less than 600, and the highest i found them is 1014 when you are by the allied spawn looking at all the buildings.

That seems pretty damn long for a map that looks like that. What are the specs of your PC?

http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais0018.jpg

-make the tree arc_tree1 (i think...its the one that is green). I think the green leaves would fit better.
-the house of the very right, the textures should line up with in (from side to side)

In the other picures, you can still see some misaligned textures, mostly on buildings. Try to fix those, it would make the map look much better.

Some streets or buildings look very empty. Add some models like street cars or broken furniture in houses. Anything you can find appealing in your models>mapmodels folder.

yeah that house on the right with the wood X's on it hasn't been textured yet, that was just the default texture i put on all the buildings when i first made them. but thanks for the tips, i will change that model and look through the textures.

EDIT:

gorb: its a very good pc.. so i dunno why i would be having problems.

http://trash.dork.cx/computer.txt has all the stuff on it.

looks nice. on a lot of the pictures, there seems to be quite a wide open space. it might not maqtter but i would of though adding some more cover (vehicles,bombshells etc) would give hte map more playability. i also think it would help add to the atmosphere.

yeah, i will add detail when im done with all the buildings. there will be rubble piles, barbwire, tanks, trucks, crates, shelled out sections of the road, more plants, lamps, more decorative houses, etc. :D

is it bad to have one brush going through another? ive been looking at other people's maps and a lot of them SEEM to have their rubble piles go through walls and stuff.. i always thought that caused compile errors (like the leaf into leaf stuff) but i dont know for sure. when i make rubble it takes forever if i have a board or something then i have to make the rubble around the board..

its fine. just dont do it too often because it can cause an icrease of r_speeds

The destroyed-ness of the houses looks really funky, angled cuts on brick doesn't work. Maybe if the textures were stucco or something it would work. As it stands having the pristine houses beside this uber destroyed house that has a lot of triangular type angles while being brick and such looks really funny.

good point. haha. ill upload some more pics in a few after i finish these two houses and compile. ill fix those houses too. while you're here gorb, do you know why snarkpit is down?

No, not sure, it says the database was "eaten" so we'll just have to wait.

damnit :(

heres the updated pictures:

http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais_new0000.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais_new0001.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais_new0002.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais_new0003.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/calais_new0004.jpg

calais_new0002.jpg - i know that texture is off, i just noticed and i fixed it already :P

it took an INSANE amount of time to compile.. something must be wrong, but its not giving me any errors..

hlvis v2.5.3 rel (May 2 2001)
Based on Valve's version, modified with permission.
Submit detailed bug reports to (zoner@gearboxsoftware.com)
----- BEGIN hlvis -----
Command line: E:\Programs\ZHLT\hlvis.exe -full -texdata 8192 -chart "C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\dod_maps\maps in progress\calais\calais.map"

-= Current hlvis Settings =-
Name | Setting | Default
-------------------|-----------|-------------------------
threads [ 2 ] [ Varies ]
verbose [ off ] [ off ]
log [ on ] [ on ]
developer [ 0 ] [ 0 ]
chart [ on ] [ off ]
estimate [ off ] [ off ]
max texture memory [ 8388608 ] [ 4194304 ]
priority [ Normal ] [ Normal ]

fast vis [ off ] [ off ]
full vis [ on ] [ off ]


1522 portalleafs
4658 numportals
BasePortalVis:
(6.33 seconds)
LeafThread:
(3546.00 seconds)
average leafs visible: 274
g_visdatasize:185790 compressed from 290702

Object names Objects/Maxobjs Memory / Maxmem Fullness
------------ --------------- --------------- --------
models 34/400 2176/25600 ( 8.5)
planes 6868/32767 137360/655340 (21.0)
vertexes 9783/65535 117396/786420 (14.9)
nodes 3103/32767 74472/786408 ( 9.5)
texinfos 1278/32767 51120/1310680 ( 3.9)
faces 7487/65535 149740/1310700 (11.4)
clipnodes 10298/32767 82384/262136 (31.4)
leaves 1737/8192 48636/229376 (21.2)
marksurfaces 8774/65535 17548/131070 (13.4)
surfedges 35240/512000 140960/2048000 ( 6.9)
edges 17809/256000 71236/1024000 ( 7.0)
texdata [variable] 7535440/8388608 (89.8)
lightdata [variable] 0/4194304 ( 0.0)
visdata [variable] 185790/2097152 ( 8.9)
entdata [variable] 16116/524288 ( 3.1)
121 textures referenced
=== Total BSP file data space used: 8630374 bytes ===
3552.69 seconds elapsed [59m 12s]

----- END hlvis -----

guess im using too many textures?

Don't worry about the textures and don't worry about the small stuff like a fragmented brush or a misaligned door...it's all about the gameplay.

If the map plays well then take the time to make it pretty. It's the gameplay that will keep folks coming back...not the graphics. Sure...the "look" is important to hook players...but gameplay ALWAYS wins out. If it can be played now get it up on a test server and try it out...take comments from folks and go back and work the issues out.

Gameplay, gameplay, gameplay...

well FuzzDad, hes asking for comments so we are giving him comments on what we see. We cannot play it so we cannot judge the gameplay.

not quite playable yet. the axis spawn hasn't even been made yet, lol.

didnt have much time to work on it today, but what i did have i spent all on one house. its pretty big, and complex. has about 6 stairwells, tons of rooms, and 8 or so windows. i also finished a building last night that i haven't had the chance to show you, so when the compile is done (probably about an hour) ill show you what i've done.

new pictures: http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july%203/ - i haven't messed around with lighting yet, i think that house will look much better with proper lighting.

LeafThread:
10%...20%...30%...40%...50%...60%...70%...80%...90 %... (4043.84 seconds)
average leafs visible: 263
g_visdatasize:224546 compressed from 432681

something has to be wrong, can anyone help?

EDIT: does anyone know of a .wad with lots of wallpapers? i also need some telephone wires...

wow. its really improving. :)

thanks! the house will look 100 times better with furniture etc, and fixed lighting. the main problem is i only have like 2 wallpapers so everything looks the same on the inside :\

guess nobody is looking at this anymore lol

Yep, much better :D

i just added a bunch of stuff, so ill upload some screens tomorrow after it compiles (takes like 1 1/2 hrs now...) - i think i went a little overboard on the fountain, hehe. anyways, i also went over the max texture size (i had it set at 8mb) so i think i need to reduce them or something, i dunno what to do :\

UPDATE: http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/wtf/

i dont know why, but the whole level is underwater..... i have a fountain with some "waterfalls" made from func_conveyor, but why would that fill the whole level with water? that is the only place in the entire level with water :\

has anyone else ever had this problem?

Maybe you have an invalid brush on any of your water and when you've compiled it's altered the brush so that it can finish but in turn that required it to cover the map with a brush with a water property.

i think you may be right. what makes a water brush invalid though? (its not invalid according to the editor) - anyways im removing all the water and then im going to recompile.

Looks like that part of the map is inside skybrush. When map is inside skybrush it might produce such a effect.

nope, the fountain was well below the skybrush, except when the brush flipped out and took up the whole map (like it shows in the screenshots). i added some detail (finally) and almost have the whole map done, the only part i have left is the axis spawn area and their street. then ill have to add more detail, then it will be time for a playtest :) im compiling now, so i should be able to put up some screenshots in an hour or so.. or if it takes to long i might have to do it tomorrow.

EDIT: it seems to compile okay until it gets to the "LeafThread", then it goes kinda slow, but when it reaches "90%...." it takes like 20-30 minutes to finish. i still haven't figured out why, i am doing Full VIS though, so maybe thats just normal.

UPDATE: well, i tried to add water again and it screwed up again, but i managed to find an area in the map without water and took a few screenshots. ill have to fix the water problem tomorrow.

screenshots: http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_5/

Did it work fine with the water removed? If so, try pressing Alt+P to check for problems...and look for an "invalid solid" that is part of one of the water brushes.

works with water removed, but says none of the brushes are invalid. is there a certain way you are supposed to do water? i have a bunch of brushes making up the water for the fountain, is that no okay to do?

Wow, this map has really improved. It's looking great now :)

Hi,

First of all: your map looks very good! Nice to see people actually making progres after the first 10 brushes ;)
No really, it looks very nice.

I had the water problem too and I'm 99% confident that you atached the waterbrushes to eachother and then tied the brushes to the func_water entity. It's important to tie each unique brush to the func_water entity.

Try this. I hope it works for you as it did for me ;)
Succes,

greyhound

thank you guys for your input! it means a lot to me, i've spent A LOT of time on this map :D

oh man, if thats the problem im gonna be mad :( cause i deleted all the water, lol.

You should be able to tie multiple brushes to a func_water just fine, I've done it many times with no problems.

heres the compile with the fountain waterless.

These areas need more detail or need to be changed, ideas would be appreciated.
-----
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0007.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0009.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0010.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0013.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0012.jpg

r_speed problem areas.
-----
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0011.jpg (maybe)
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0014.jpg - can't figure out a way to make the house look broken up without lots of polys..

errors.
-----
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0015.jpg - dunno why it does that, the brush's are aligned.. i will probably end up taking out these windows and replacing them with boring ones because of the r_speeds...

other pictures
-----
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0008.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0006.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0005.jpg
http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0004.jpg

For the buildings to be destroyed a good idea is to choose your areas of destruction carefully. Don't have something for every single window. As well, you can fudge some parts of the brick breaking, and don't have the jutting bricks everywhere...keep it to one or two parts of the building and try and use textures to your advantage.

[edit] As well, not EVERY window has to be open, pick which ones you want use as making certain combinations will help VIS block a whole lot for you.

thanks gorb, always appreciate your input. do you have any ideas for the other areas?

Well for stuff like this:

http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0009.jpg

I'd inset the grate around the tree down a few units as well as making the depth of the grass/dirt a little less. So move the ground up a bit in that hole and set the grate down a bit, either that or blend it more, but I think to inset it would be best in this situation.

Also, be sure to rotate the texture of the wood on stuff like those wooden beams. So that the grain flows the correct direction on the wood.

gotcha. since this city is fairly un-razed, what should i put in the street for cover? wouldn't rubble and hedgehog's look kinda funny?

cars, carts, signs, some boxs/barrels

got cars, got carts, ill add some crates/barrels too. dunno where to add/get signs though.

here make some Propaganda (http://www.4thidusa.com/files/Propag.zip)

on pic 14 the engine must be seeing something behind that house...no way those brushes alone are causing over 2000 wpoly. Use gl_wireframe 2 and figure out where the problem lies...I'll bet either one of those houses openes up in the back to another area and the engine...from this vantage...can "see" the other area.

Nice job so far, keep it up.

Now for that calais14 pic, I suggest you use vertex manipulation and use more triangle brushes to create blown out holes in walls.
This will save a TON of w_polies trust me. Below is an example of how you could change the structure of the wall to make it less harsh on the r_speeds.

yeah, mexikilla, i originally had it that way, but it looked funny because of the brick (diagonal lines and brick dont work very well) which gorb pointed out to me. i think i have fixed it for the most part, however if the r_speeds are still high on the next compile i will have to go to alternate means...

where is IR? he hasn't commented on this thread at all yet :E

He doesn't have to reply to every post...

i didnt say he did.... i simply wanted his input because he usually gives good comments...

You can also save a few face splits if you make those jagged bricks func_brushes. Use gl_wireframe and see what's causing the wpoly to be in the 2000 range...most servers will not run a map like that for long because after two or three players get in the lag goes through the roof on the client. Try and keep the averages in the 700 or below wpoly and 4000 and below in epoly range. You can have one spike up for a bit but combintions of either higher than that can cause problems...going over 1000 in any other place but at the edges or corners of a map = bad news.

Like I said earlier, I doubt you have 2000 wpoly in that building alone...unless you have a few hundred spare bricks in there. Especially considering how all I see is that building and a few low-poly buildings to the left and to the right.

Take a look at the attached pic.

You can see almost the length of the runway and all the buildings on the left and right yet my speeds are under control...it's knowledge of what the engine "see's" is the trick...learn to use gl_wireframe and how and when the engine draws stuff if you want to become a better mapper.

ill have to check that out, i've never used gl_wireframe before..

i will NEVER release this map until i fix those problems, i can guarantee that. why release a faulty map? serves no purpose. even if the map isnt good ill still fix all the problems :P

106fps Fuzz?

i get high fps when im alone also. sometimes 200+

Either there has been a big HL code change or something's wrong then. The previous maximum in HL was 100 with no possible break on that. Did the HL/Steam conversion change this?

it must've.

see: http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_6/calais0004.jpg

EDIT: i just got this error, and dont know how to find it..

Error: Entity 291 has no visible brushes

Error: No visibile brushes
Description: All brushes are CLIP or ORIGIN (at least one must be normal/visible
)
Howto Fix: self explanitory

yes, i know how to fix it, but how the hell do i find it!? lol

Originally posted by Gorbachev
106fps Fuzz?

I gots me a uber nice ATI 9800pro baby! Actually...I think if you have developer 2 on it screws the fps readings...My monitor was set to 100 hrz so it really caps at that.

Originally posted by siron
ill have to check that out, i've never used gl_wireframe before..


Make sure you have the commands -dev -console in your DoD Launch Properties settings and once DoD starts go to the console and type developer 2 and then map dod_siron. Once in the map pull the console down and do the gl_wireframe 2 trick. I bind gl_wireframe 2 and 0 to keys so I can swtich back-n-forth as I test.

yup got the -dev -console ;) as soon as i get this to compile i will try that :)

i found the entity, its a metal clip for a radio.. i think worldcraft is being weird. :\

What's the difference between dev 1 and 2?

Originally posted by Gorbachev
What's the difference between dev 1 and 2?

LOL...I can't remember...someone told me ages ago but not sure now (more "rights" to do stuff I figure).

ok, its time to change the name and find a story to go with this map. basically this is a small french town that is under german control, but is not destroyed. im guessing that i could make this a town that the allies are marching in to liberate, and thus have a battle here.. i could throw out some names and you can shoot them down / give approval.. here goes..

dod_StAndre - french town that was liberated during operation goodwood, my town probably looks nothing like the real town though, or any real town for that matter.. (July, 1944)

dod_LeMans - another small town, liberated on the drive to the seine (liberated August 8, 1944)

dod_dreux - same as above (liberated August 16, 1944)

dod_chartres - same, same date

dod_chambois - involved in the battle of the falaise pocket (August 16-19, 1944)

i dont know really, i dont know a lot of details about the war, so maybe i should just let you guys go at it. heh.

sorry i haven't been around today, i woke up dizzy for some weird reason and it hasn't really gone away.. its really hard to write this. hehe. anyways, heres screens from the last compile, i need to do LOTS of work on r_speeds, for some reason e_poly's are VERY VERY high everywhere, bleh.

http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_8/

crit is welcome, im gonna go lay down again.

im pretty sure a lot of those epoly's are from this house - http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/july_8/calais0021.jpg - im going to take a lot of the models out of there and try recompiling to see if it makes a big difference.

The blue texture in pic 26 dosen't fit with the rest.

yeah i know, thats one of two areas i haven't worked on yet ;P

heres some wireframe shots:

http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/wireframe/

the r_speeds and wpoly/epoly stuff wouldn't show up for some reason, just look at the fps i guess. a few things i would like to point out.

in front of allied flag 1, shot 1: http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/wireframe/calais0002.jpg

moved forward a little: http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/wireframe/calais0003.jpg

a little more: http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/wireframe/calais0004.jpg

see how it cuts down as i get closer? maybe i should put a roof or something on there...

http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/wireframe/calais0005.jpg now you see it, http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/wireframe/calais0006.jpg now you dont (moved over like 5 feet).



http://trash.dork.cx/maps/dod_calais/wireframe/calais0009.jpg i can already see im going to have a problem with the axis first flag, even though i haven't done anything there yet.

Yes...the wireframe shows that you can see the buildings through the building ahead of you...put in some solid walls and a "S" turn hallway to connect this side to the other (pic 13 I think...the building with all the brick parts).

As to epoly...it's a combination of models and func_brush windows...dump the windows and some of teh bush models...ort better yet...pull out Jeds HLMV and look at the epoly number for the modesl you have...betcha you can find a few lower-poly models that will do as well for you

yeah, gonna have to take out some models :(

actually on this runaround there was only one spot where the models were high, 9000-10000, which was by the axis building after the fountain..

about the allied area, ill see what i can do. think the fact that you can see through the roof is affecting it?

where is the epoly number in HLMV?

Originally posted by FuzzDad
...pull out Jeds HLMV and look at the epoly number ... www.wunderboy.org

oh.. heh. this map is getting on my nerves, i might set it aside for a bit and work on something else.

set aside (verb) (lazicus mapperus)
to quit a map. after this action, maps are usually put in the Recycle Bin.

probably.

If you stop working on a map, 9 times out of 10 you never come back to it.

I can vouche for that. I got 1/2 way through a dod map called "dod_kaust". Some of you may ahve seen screenshots of it before...anyways, I got pissed at the textures and said to hell with the map.

well, the map wasn't that great anyways, i got fed up with textures, layout, and high epoly, and i dont feel the map is worth fixing all those problems..