http://www.gotfrag.com/dod/features/comments/725/

This is an article that I wrote for Gotfrag, a web-site for competitive games such as cs, cod, and dod. After talking about the article and gameplay and possible solutions of what we see as issues, we decided that designing maps more conducive for Clan Play would help a lot. This is a comment that I made in the thread:


I think it's both good and bad that maps are one of the larger problems. Good, because it's something that can still be created and managed, even if the Dev team has called it quits with updates. Bad, because it doesn't take five minutes to make a map and not everyone will have exactly the same idea of how simple/complex to make each map.

Would people be up for a committee-type group, consisting of a few map makers and a couple players or so from half a dozen cal-i teams? We could, over a week or so, design four maps to be created, then hand them over to the mappers to make a prototype. These un-finished maps would only have the basic designs, with very few bells and whistles, just to be tested for gameplay. If things work out, the maps could then be developed further. We could supplement the map rotation with these maps, so that the CAL map rotation could have favorites like anzio with a bunch of customs that most people like.

So what I am doing here, is asking if any of you excellent mappers would like to join such a committee, to help make maps for clan play. We would help with the design and throw you ideas and then give you constructive criticism on what you create. It's a great opportunity both to bridge the gap between the dodmod community here and clan players, in addition to helping us create something great.

PM me on irc (irc.gamesurge.net) in channels #1911 and #highball. I'm there as hb-Eckmania, if you're interested.

Thanks.

edit:

We love the maps that are currently in play. We don't think badly of them. We just think that they aren't what we want for our ideal vision of competitive play.

I for one do not like the idea of it, after all thats why they are "custom" maps, not built nor designed with a certain exact purpose in mind. This, while sounding like a good idea, to me would seem to hinder the creativity of map design.

If you wanted your map played in a clan style setting you would have to build it in a certain manner to adjust to how others think it should be, to be "conducive" to good clan play.

It seems a "cookie cutter" style would develop out of this, a certain amount of routes, a certain amount of windows, a certain amount of rubble, a certain layout is unacceptable for a "clan" map, a certain layout is beter than others for clan play.

Although you can argue that maps are already built like this, thats not the way I meant it. It seems like you wish for the maps to be perfectly even, mirrored copy, that may not be the case, but it seems that way to me, it shouldnt be that way.

The clan fighting on the map should have to develop tactics for that specific map, not complain the map is unfair, learn the ends and outs of it, try different tactics, most people do not adjust well to tactics other than there own, as they have there own style they like to fight in.

With the maps built to some "standard" configurations, not everyone "will have exactly the same idea of how simple/complex to make each map" because we are individuals, with individual creativity.

You start saying these are "standard" ideals for a clan match you reduce the wonderfull variations that are "custom" maps. Mind you, you may not "say" these are standard things but they would develop after people see the maps you make for clan play. They would make or redo the map based on that and throw out their own ideas out or push them to the side.

I am not saying the maps they may come out of this will be bad or uncreative oe even all the "exact" same. I am just saying the way the idea of it is coming across to me I do not like. For the record yes I make maps.

I would rather see the mapper worked with to improve existing maps gameplay, rather than some type of standard idea developed. People will spend a large amount of time complaing about how this map or that map "sucked" but will not spend 1 minute to send an e-mail to the mapper with feedback or ideas.

I have found threads in forums complaining about how one of my maps was bad and all kinds of thoughts about it, know how many e-mails I got about that map? NONE, maps can improve but people need to send feedback, real honest ideas, not flames.

You may not agreee with me, but you do not have to. These are my thoughts and opinions, therefore they are not wrong, just mine.

From my experience 95% of the maps deemed "clan" were garbage. The looked poor and played poor. Why not play the game with all its variations as long as the chances to win are even?

From my experience they want more dust everywhere. Just looking nicer (mappers job) but dust anyway. Don't know why clanners always are saying that everything should look like thay say (gameplay), now targetting mappers.
Real problem lies in testing. Map can be bad because bad playtesting (no test at all, not enough wide base of testers, close friends whose won't say anything bad even if map is really bad). Even if you manage do do playtest with good number of players (not so easy) you get response just from 2 or 3 persons.

Frankly, I don't care if you want to have your maps played out by pub nubs proning with the grease in every random corner they can find while half-wit admins kick people who are decent at the game, knock yourselves out, you holier-than-thou pricks.

I was just wondering if any of you talented mappers wanted to help create unique, fun, fast-playing maps instead of the train-wreck-newbie-camp-fest that is pub play.

But apparently you don't.

lol.... you´re full of hate

you won´t get far with this attitude

I didn't get far being nice and asking people to be a part of something new, so **** being nice.

Well, a good solution for a clan map is that one side defends and one side attacks. In this way, there's a clear purpose set in mind for that map.

So, rather than a city with random people wandering about nooks and crannies capturing areas, you have a well-defined objective-style gameplay.

As for balance, should mirror-images be used? Or can it be modelled after actual historical battlefields (like Brothers in Arms) or non-symettrical maps, but still steps taken to ensure a certain type of balance and gameflow?

DoD's strength lies in knowing the map and covering the flanks and depriving the enemy of "ninjaing". I don't see how clan players can deal with it. And camping = defending. But maybe you are angry at the fact that there are some appreantly meaningless nooks and crannies which hold no value to gameplay. And after all, i don't see what's wrong with having some luck for a lousier team by exploiting the complexity of the map and finding a good "opening". That's war. That's cunning tactics. That can be cheap. But so what? It's a game..a free flowing game of DoD.

Personally i think its a good idea. Hes suggesting having new, balanced maps for clan matches. I dont see how that would affect the wider dod communtiy. It wont push people into playing these maps on public servers.

DOD is different from CS. CS is so popular because its simple. de_dust for example.. the most popular map ever. Theres only really 2 ways to go at the start for each team, but people still love it.
DOD has a continuous style of play with many ways to go, which creates many possabilities.
Simpler dod maps like anzio are played in clan matches because they are more like CS maps. There are fewer ways to go so they test the palyers skill against other players more directly.
Glidias summed it up quite well - So, rather than a city with random people wandering about nooks and crannies capturing areas, you have a well-defined objective-style gameplay.

So whats wrong with having some similar, new maps for clans to play?

You know, you attempted to come out sounding like a decent person, wanted to get something new going, but apparently you are not, you are an example of the poor pathetic "clan" mentallity.

Your clan must "suck" because the map is horrible, thats what is holding back your "uber 733t skillz" if only they made maps how you wanted.


you said "We love the maps that are currently in play. We don't think badly of them. We just think that they aren't what we want for our ideal vision of competitive play." Hitler had ideal visions too.

Bu then when people did not agree with you, you state"Frankly, I don't care if you want to have your maps played out by pub nubs proning with the grease in every random corner they can find while half-wit admins kick people who are decent at the game, knock yourselves out, you holier-than-thou pricks.

I was just wondering if any of you talented mappers wanted to help create unique, fun, fast-playing maps instead of the train-wreck-newbie-camp-fest that is pub play.

But apparently you don't." Didnt you just insult, degrade and otherwise put down every dod player and mapper and admin??

Hmm, you are the one with the holier than thou attitude "I didn't get far being nice and asking people to be a part of something new, so fuc[k] being nice." What camp do we go to to be "reeducated" to understand your vision??

Scuzz, "I dont see how that would affect the wider dod communtiy. It wont push people into playing these maps on public servers." While it might not, but it would push a wedge between "clanners" and us "pub nubs proning with the grease in every random corner they can find while half-wit admins kick people who are decent at the game"

"DOD is different from CS."
Exactly so why should our maps reflect a CS type of play?This person, Eckman, seems to not know the difference.

"CS is so popular because its simple."
That statement says alot about the avarage CS player doesnt it?

"DOD has a continuous style of play with many ways to go, which creates many possabilities."
How can you say that then say this?
"There are fewer ways to go so they test the palyers skill against other players more directly."

"So whats wrong with having some similar, new maps for clans to play?"
The "cookie cutter" comes to mind.

there are PLENTY of good balanced maps out there right now, official and custom. And there are many more comming.

(4THIDUSA) SSG, nowhere in your rambling, inchoerent reply, did you manage a rational thought for me to criticize, but I'll try. You are the perfect example of the misinformed, stubborn, and righteously indignant jerks that try to get in the way of things that won't change the way they play in the slightest.

Hitler? "uber 733t skillz"?

No competitive players talk like that! Leet speak went out of fashion YEARS ago, and the only people who use it are idiots trying to mock a community they know almost nothing about.

We like maps like anzio, rail road, and harrington because of the numerous ways to go and lack of gay spots for skill-less players to *****. These maps encourage aggressive play, instead of mind-bogglingly slow choke points with half a million corners.

IF YOU LIKE HALF A MILLION CORNERS, THAT IS WONDERFUL! PLAY THE GIVEN MAPS! WE ARE NOT TRYING TO MAKE YOU CHANGE! We just want to try something here with what we want for ourselves.

...Didnt you just insult, degrade and otherwise put down every dod player and mapper and admin??

As a mapper, player and admin im not bothered :D


Scuzz, "I dont see how that would affect the wider dod communtiy. It wont push people into playing these maps on public servers." While it might not, but it would push a wedge between "clanners" and us "pub nubs proning with the grease in every random corner they can find while half-wit admins kick people who are decent at the game"

That doesnt matter... people will play what they want.. let 'clanners' have their prefered style of play and 'pub-nubs' have their own style of play.

"DOD is different from CS."
Exactly so why should our maps reflect a CS type of play?This person, Eckman, seems to not know the difference.


Your maps dont have to. Maybe theres a mapper interested in CS style play in dod that wants to try?

"CS is so popular because its simple."
That statement says alot about the avarage CS player doesnt it?


Not really

"DOD has a continuous style of play with many ways to go, which creates many possabilities."
How can you say that then say this?
"There are fewer ways to go so they test the palyers skill against other players more directly."

Some classes are superior to other in different situations in DOD. One player may get an advantage because of his and beat another. Thats not as good a direct test of skill as CS's classless style of play is.

"So whats wrong with having some similar, new maps for clans to play?"
The "cookie cutter" comes to mind.

What if the cookie comes out a good shape?

Jesus Christ, how about we just port over dust, and add a few ambient_generics, which won't matter because everybody just uses stopsound anyways...

Eck, I think people would be more open minded of your opinions if you didn't come in and start ripping on a thing we love to do.

Perhaps if you had said something more along the lines of "If you like your maps to be played by the public, fine by me, but if you are interested in helping please PM me and we can figure something out :)"

However, you had to start swearing and throwing insults around, as if you were some sort of big shot, trying to use cryptic and vague references for something you obviously know nothing about. If you had taken your thumb out of your ass long enough, you would have realized that people were trying to have a level and fair discussion, but your "newbiacy" (excuse my "noob speek") flooded over all the posts, and in the end causes you only to look as if you are a blubbering ******.

I suggest you try to regain some respect from many people of these forums, perhaps then you can have some chance of accomplishing your goal.


Thankyou, and Good-day

Why aren't there more maps for clans?

Lets examine some ideas/facts:

1. Clan maps tend to be bland, clanners hate models and their clipping, so tend to shun away from this. This makes the maps look barren and unappealing to make, after all it aint WW2 without some tank on fire!

2. When I make maps, i use ambient sounds to create an atmosphere, Clanners use stopsound, so you might as well not have any sound which again looses the authenticity of WW2 combined with above.

3. It has to be balanced, you will never every get a map 50/50 balanced. Even if its dod_2fort. Balance depends on the players involved, you can have symetrical maps, but if one team is fantastic and the others not, well its going to be pushover

4. Clanners hate objective maps and Brits. Objective maps are the most fun to make, much more intense IMO and more believable, Brits are also fun, but people seem to think they are limited and useless!? This is usually the German players who all use KAR's or StG44's, which are equalled and bettered by the Enfield and Bren.

Just some of the reasons that have popped into my head...

Originally posted by Eckman
(4THIDUSA) SSG, nowhere in your rambling, inchoerent reply, did you manage a rational thought for me to criticize, but I'll try. You are the perfect example of the misinformed, stubborn, and righteously indignant jerks that try to get in the way of things that won't change the way they play in the slightest.

Hitler? "uber 733t skillz"?

No competitive players talk like that! Leet speak went out of fashion YEARS ago, and the only people who use it are idiots trying to mock a community they know almost nothing about.

We like maps like anzio, rail road, and harrington because of the numerous ways to go and lack of gay spots for skill-less players to *****. These maps encourage aggressive play, instead of mind-bogglingly slow choke points with half a million corners.

IF YOU LIKE HALF A MILLION CORNERS, THAT IS WONDERFUL! PLAY THE GIVEN MAPS! WE ARE NOT TRYING TO MAKE YOU CHANGE! We just want to try something here with what we want for ourselves.

Holeman created the excellent Harrington map for exactly the purpose of clan play as you alluded to above. I suggest you contact individual mappers instead of this approach. As you can see, this thread has turned quite hostile.

I can see deep down you just want to have more maps that fit clan play...nothing wrong with your intentions at all. But reacting this way and insutling people will catch attention of the admins and likely result in a ban from these forums...if it matters to you.

Eckman. I present you....

the solution to all your problems! (http://collective.valve-erc.com/data/docs/1039631978-44855700/files/hammer_v34.exe)

I've been dicking around with it recently, actually. But it's slow-going. I'm not very good. :(

Anzio is a fast-playing, colorful map with a lot of character. We love it. We want to create more maps like this, not necessarily bland de_ clones.

Custom Mapping on a creative and individual scale

Mapping is all down to the individual person creating the map. They shouldn't be bound by specific guidelines and be free to create what style of map they want, what features they want in the map....after all its their unique work. If you want to create a map for clanning, its up to you...I have had people ask me to make maps to their preferences in the past, and what do I say to them?

Learn how to do it yourself! I have had friends who have been dedicated in learning how to map in their free time, I have helped them to develop their skills and through the use of tutorials they managed to create fairly good looking maps. If you want a clanning map, then create one! We are always here to help! I believe you can also get together with your clanning friends and work with each other to create some maps for clanning. I believe here is not the place to find people, however.

Clanning

What exactly defines a "clan" map anyway? I mean, sure I have played in leagues, admined leagues, I been in a few top DoD clans and used to regard myself as a "clanner." But what I feel the common "wish" is with a small collection of clanners is for maps to be bland, and I generally find there is no "Fun factor" in maps created for clanning. Sure, it allows for some interesting tactics to be used and emphasizes teamwork, but i don't find it fun to play on a boring map! I find Anzio to be fairly boring at times, and I believe this is popular with "clanners" as yourselves. Sure Its good to clan, etc but I think many of you have got so hooked up with the intellectual side of things that you have forgotten what this is, a game! I bet in clan matches you don't get out your spade and chase someone for ages just to attempt a kill, even though you don't have a good chance....I bet a lot of the time you don't laugh during the game and actually feel real excitement. Maybe staying on a fixed route focussing 100% is for you, but I personally do not find it fun.

I would prefer to see more features in maps than the typical "clan map" as it just doesn't excite me.

I may be in the minority, but its my opinion on this matter :)

Might be an idea to start afresh with this concept, take all the good points from the feedback given, along with some of the reasonable views from those who dont agree with it, walk away and come back.........

Different attitudes required here, then, and only then will everyone get somewhere with this.

Jumping on the defensive, or indeed, the offensive immediately will result in exactly what has transpired here in a matter of a few posts.

This could be discussed in a much more mature and non-confrontational way.

If it doesn't...............:rolleyes:

*Dangles padlock*;)

Originally posted by Eckman
I've been dicking around with it recently, actually. But it's slow-going. I'm not very good. :(

Anzio is a fast-playing, colorful map with a lot of character. We love it. We want to create more maps like this, not necessarily bland de_ clones.

True...Hammer is slow going in the beginning, and we don't expect you to bang out a good map in a month when you've never used it before.

Fair point about Anzio...well, I am not a clanner so I don't really think about making clan maps. I think you need to find mappers, like Holeman, who are talented and are knowledgable about clan play.

Yea...you need to find a mapper who's interested in making maps "The Clan Way"...most of us map for ourselves and love to make nook-and-cranny maps because it appeals to us from a visual sense...this is WW2 after all.

Considering the general disdain in the gotfrag forums for most of the current set of "official mappers", I doubt many of us would put ourselves in a position to help unless current attitudes were checked at the door and a more cooperative structure was introduced...it's hard to lead a horse to water by whipping it all the time.

So it's a case of either mapping for yourself, getting Holeman or another clan-style mapper to help out, or changing the culture to encourage mappers who know what they are doing to want to help out. I have to think the reason you guys don't get more mappers to make maps for you is irrevocably tied to the attitudes expressed here by some of the more vocal clan players. Why should mappers lift a hand to help out when a few posts into the thread folks start in on people using cuss words and acting like spoiled brats (this goes for both sides of the argument)? Why lower yourselves? And as such where's the incentive for a guy like Izuno or me or IR or others to map for clans? Of course the other argument could be made that since some of the clan guys think we suck as map-makers perhaps you'd not want us to even try. :)

Another thing...Anzio is really played a lot and it's a great map...but it's FULL of nooks and crannies, dark holes to hide in, the ability to spawn-camp...as is both harrington and railroad. The one thing that stands out in all of them is a general inability to shoot anything from far-far away...all are (for the most part) close quarters action maps.

going back to the DIY method mentioned, we would all be more than happy to help you if you run into any problems, or need general advice. What we can't do is map for you :)

does insta still map?

Yes

Sounds weird tho ...