I know this should be in mapping, but this involves gameplay issues as well and I feel it needs to be seen by a larger audience.


I am asking mappers to stop making maps with specific choke points. Choke points are the stupidest mapping idea ever and when there are 345365475637 choke points in EVERY SINGLE DOD MAP EVER, it gets especially retarded.

The whole premise of a choke point is to overcome by fire superiority. WELL GUESS WHO HAS THE FIRE SUPERIORITY? Yep, the axis. When there are no class limits and MG's are the majority of a defensive team, well, the axis have everyone beat. You cannot defeat a chokepoint guarded by several MG42's, it just doesnt happen, no matter what kind of allied firepower you have. Chokepoints guarded by multiple MG42's as well as snipers are especially impossible to break through.

What I desire are maps without choke points, such as a hedgerow map where every hedgerow is open and can be passed through, perhaps with one chokepoint, but not 10. Maps where an attack can come from any flank, or out of any hedge, not just from down one road or out one window. Maps with more open fields and trenches. yeah so speeds might be an issue, so what, find a way around it without making everymap have a town or a road, or any buildings at all.

i like em, i say there should be more of them

Well most maps have a couple of flank routes built in so it's not so annoying. Only map that I can think of that has none is Switch, and yes, I agree that's the probably the worst official map in DoD history. But there's this rule that states that there has to be one map per beta where the n00bs can deploy an MG in one spot and hold the entire map down forever.

I like choke points, makes the action more intense.

some maps have crazy chokepoints like switch, heutau, or zafod

other maps don't have a lot of chokepoints like anzio, chemille, and railroad

just play on maps that dont have chokepoints and you will be happy, and other people can still play on maps that you dislike

Originally posted by Grain
I like choke points, makes the action more intense.

Sure it does, but lets take Glider for instance, Its not very intense to me to get killed every time I walk out of the spawn because the axis have every route pinned down by MG fire thats so intense you cannot move.

Originally posted by Pook2
I know this should be in mapping, but this involves gameplay issues as well and I feel it needs to be seen by a larger audience.


How do you think this helps you Pook?


*moved from general*

I specifically said gameplay issues as well, you know, kinda like all those hundreds of threads about the BAR and K98.

Alot of maps are designed with chokepoints in mind, this way it brings the two teams together and makes for more intense action, Zaford was a classic example of this, and that is still one well liked map. Choke points are needed in most maps other wise it would be to easy to cap for either side. Also it makes you use you Brain on how to niggle out those campers.

BTW did I see a thread somewhere that said people could ***** 27/4 around here?

Without designed choke points the gameplay has no tension to it and becomes boring. If u look at the best ever dod maps they have a certain amount of choke points. That's what sets DoD apart from other games out there - of which there are tons to choose from these days.

Musso

For people with less skill, like me, its nearly impossible to play the damn game in pubs where there are 10 people guarding a choke point with MG42's, you just cant get passed it, and the maps go no where. I would rather have a map where caps were easy so that the points could change hands much more often, instead of something like forest where it requires an overwhelming force of Americans to get to the last flag, its rediculous. In all my days of playing forest since its creation, I have seen the Americans cap the last flag about twice, granted I dont play often.

But why cant there be more maps like dod_june11 with more open areas where more realistic combat and tactics can be used instead of the stupid deathmatch that goes on in EVERY map and server, and what seems to be popular.

While we are at it: NO MORE TANK MODELS!

And yes, choke point slow the game down a lot - make less major choke points, and perhaps smaller ones instead - like anzio.

Originally posted by Pook2
Sure it does, but lets take Glider for instance, Its not very intense to me to get killed every time I walk out of the spawn because the axis have every route pinned down by MG fire thats so intense you cannot move.


I designed it that way...as an objective map it should be difficult to get out of the spawn...and anyway...it's a allied-biased map too. I will not change the exits that much...i like them the way they are

Don't limit the types of maps there are...just ask people to make some more open ones. Each styles has it's ups and downs and it also depends on who you play with. If you're into open gameplay just get some bigger open custom maps and run your own server.

lol, no more tank models THAT ARENT CLIPPED CORRECTLY was the phrase your looking for.

I dont care personally, I spend the extra brush or two to make sure the model is clipped properly, not doing so is taking a shortcut, and makes players mad.

This is a major pet peeve of mine on official maps, and every one of them has there share of poorly clipped models. No excuse for this as far as im concerned.

This about sums it up.

http://members.shaw.ca/gorb/1337map.gif

I really think most of these complaints are unfounded or directed at the wrong people/idea. There are little things called engine limitations meaning there could be a few more open maps but they take skill to pull off without looking like garbage.

..... I see 3 WiP of yours in your sig, does that mean that yours are?

Originally posted by Lonewolf_45100
While we are at it: NO MORE TANK MODELS!

And yes, choke point slow the game down a lot - make less major choke points, and perhaps smaller ones instead - like anzio. What the hell? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Non Choke point maps are slow. Choke points concentrate the action.

I think all maps require at least 2 clear routes through any given area. Choke points can be created where paths cross over or meet, which is a good position for a flag. I totally agree that having one or 2 BIG choke points takes away a lot from gameplay. Look at flash, theres a massive choe point right in the middle. While there are flanking routes on teh axis and allied sides of the map, they all meet in one spot that is very small, and to get past a player must pass that one small area. Ditto switch at each end of the plaza. This is poor mapping in my opinion. These 2 maps are really the only official maps with this problem, and the map is really unplayable with more than 16 people. All the action occurs in teh same spot, theres no flow, and teams have trouble moving past.

Avalanche has a big central choke point, but avoids the problem by having flanking routes through the buildings and church. Beautifull. Kalt has sewers. Caen, the fire and electric alley. Donner has the Bunker and the tank plaza. Merderet can get pretty tight but the water, bridge ladders, and river hotel allow 'some' flanking. All these maps are playable with 20 or so people, but once you get up to the 26 player servers and 30 player servers, it gets awfully crowded. Still, the choke points concentrate the action, but theres still that side route that opens up the map and makes it faster flowing, but if both get bogged down with mgs and snipers, it requires plenty of teamwork to get past.

The more open maps are free flowing, and i believe have better gameplay allowing plenty of flanking opportunities. The favourite war maps too are those with multiple routes. Anzio has 2 main routes, Harrington and Railroad have 3. (left, right and midle) These 3 maps all have choke points, but they are well placed, are spread wide apart, and can easily be flanked and taken from teh rear. Flugplatz, Jagd and Escape are all in the same boat, 2 or 3 main routes with plenty of inter-linking paths. Chemille had the right idea with 2 main routes, but small tight corridoor bottlenecks constrict its flow. All these maps can be played on 32 player servers. They are fast, maps like anzio have plenty of cap outs, and it rewards attacking styles of gameplay. That is the most important aspect of designing a map, escpecially if its for clan wars. If you attack, you will win. If you try and defend with 3 mgs and 3 snipers, you can easily be flanked and lose.

When i made adrenalin (and sorry for gloating) i looked at what maps had better gameplay and flow and added more routes in beta 3 and adrenalin4. It has 3 key routes, with plenty of interlinking roads, passages and buildings, and yes, there are choke points, but they're well designed so that the action occurs in teh best areas, and they can be easily flanked. I believe (yer gloat time) that my map has really great gameplay that is suitable for a variety of player numbers.

Just my thoughts...

Linear maps (Zafod, Heutau, Switch) at first seem like the choke points would be chaotic and action packed. But no, not at all. Maybe for 5 seconds at the begining of the round, but then never again. It's a slow picking off, it kills action.
More dynamic (Avalanche, Anzio, Railroad) force you to run around all over the map capping flags and pouncing on top of people. That is action. Not methodical camping.

Let's recap;

Linear = action for 5 seconds
Dynamic = action for an entire round

The choice is in your hands, together we can stop boring maps.
Come on people now, smile on your brother now, everybody get together, try to not play linear maps right now....right now.

Originally posted by Howitzer
some maps have crazy chokepoints like heutau


yEAH.. tELL ME ABOUT IT... (oops Caps lock) ... I hated getting pinned back at the allied first flag... that stretch to the secomd flag was a ***** if there was a couple MG's deployed...


...

Originally posted by VoodooChild
lol, no more tank models THAT ARENT CLIPPED CORRECTLY was the phrase your looking for.

I dont care personally, I spend the extra brush or two to make sure the model is clipped properly, not doing so is taking a shortcut, and makes players mad.

This is a major pet peeve of mine on official maps, and every one of them has there share of poorly clipped models. No excuse for this as far as im concerned.

yeah i hate it when im behind a tank or tree or sandbag..... and i slowly side step untill i can see the enemy and shoot but a damn invisable wall is blocking my path :mad: and since the enemy just heard me i gave away my position... and 2 seconds later i get killed :mad: :mad: :mad:

Originally posted by Grain
What the hell? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Non Choke point maps are slow. Choke points concentrate the action.

What the?

How can you say that zafod is faster paced than anzio?

How could you concieve of stating that a map like glider is faster paced than railroad?

Choke points concentrate the action, and people camp them in order to not lose territory - it's easier to defend a choke point than to attack one.

Thus, the games with tons of chokepoints stagnate around each one. Those without choke points flow faster and in more directions.

Interesting one..

CR44 - probably the most played and popular custom map ever has only two official ways across to the other side so you would think this would be slow - but it's not, it's as intense as any map out there arguably more so than say Anzio, both teams can totally own on there and it's good for all types of weapons, So it's not just about how many routes but also the layout design.


Thus, the games with tons of chokepoints stagnate around each one. Those without choke points flow faster and in more directions.

If you have tons of chokepoints in a map they aren't really choke points as it's nearly impossible to defend all of them. With a tiny bit of teamwork they can be broken through. In real life (I know it's not etc.) everyone doesn't just run about willy nilly shooting each other from anywhere and everywhere - generally, but not always, you have one side attacking and one entrenched or two sides opposite holding and they probe each other - and some of the best ever DoD maps recreate this I think. Those type of maps make teamwork a must which is one of the main reasons I have played DoD this long rather than other games.

There's room for all types of map though - the more quality ones the better for sure and a lot of custom maps are pretty free flowing rather than concentrated action.

@Darkwing: The latest version of Adrenalin is far far better than the earlier versions for sure and having played it for 12 hours on BFE I thank you for that!! :D

Musso

this is dod, not cs fgt.

when it gets choked up just nade bug em, easy

Originally posted by VoodooChild
..... I see 3 WiP of yours in your sig, does that mean that yours are?

This is my latest and the entire idea is to make a huge level that sticks under the 800/5000 r_speed catagory or lower. While still looking lush and perdy. You be the judge.
http://members.shaw.ca/gorb/dod_belfort

Originally posted by Grain
I like choke points, makes the action more intense.

yes

It just localizes fighting to one or two areas, instead of creating a fast paced game where the fighting is everywhere, and flags change hands constantly.

I guess it's really just a question of personal tastes...

You could get rid of all choke points, but then you'd have a sloppy, confusing soup of action, which could very easily eliminate the "team-oriented gameplay" which makes DoD what it is.

On the other hand, you could have too many choke points, or in Switch's case, nothing but choke points... and it results in a much more straight-forward game, and requires alot of teamwork and thought to succeed, or at the least gain some ground.

In that sense, I can see why some newer DoD players and a few CS converters don't enjoy choke points so much... I mean, they're probably expecting/used to pure-action, but DoD is a bit deeper than that.

Choke points, I feel, are important in DoD. They allow for a more team-oriented game... now if people would simply stop charging mindlessly, stop and think with a few team-mates, and co-operate, they'll realize that choke points are actually pretty fun... it gives you something to work hard at to continue on. So, when you finally break that line, you get that nice "we did it" feeling... which is what made alot of the older maps so much fun to begin with.

Originally posted by Lonewolf_45100
What the?

How can you say that zafod is faster paced than anzio?

How could you concieve of stating that a map like glider is faster paced than railroad?

Choke points concentrate the action, and people camp them in order to not lose territory - it's easier to defend a choke point than to attack one.

Thus, the games with tons of chokepoints stagnate around each one. Those without choke points flow faster and in more directions. Flash is a fast paced map, Anzio is not. Switch is a fast paced map, Glider is not.
Avalanche is a fast paced map, Flugplatz is not.

Zafod is way too big to be fast paced even though it has a choke point.

Bottom line, If I can move from my foremost flag to cap the enemy’s foremost flag with out running in to at least 30% of the other team the map is not fast. Although that condition alone doesn’t make it a fast map, Zafod & Forest come to mind.

I prefer having choke points to be honest, sure people camp them hard but hey it makes it all the more enjoyable when you paste that nasty MG/Sniper with your spade. I also like the fact that it makes you think about how to try and get around/through the choke point either through teamwork or simple luck ;)

I'm very proud of Switch. If you don't like it, don't play it. I didn't make it for everyone to play. I made it because the retail DoD did not have any official maps with real choke points.

I'm sick of all this *****ing about it.

I don't see the point of this thread. If you don't like maps with chokepoints then don't play them and make your own non-chokepoint maps.

Originally posted by izuno
I'm sick of all this *****ing about it.

Amen to that.

There are ~17 supported maps. 1.2 will likely add 2-3 more. Within these 17-20 maps are a pretty wide range of styles and gameplay types. That is what makes DoD great. Its easy enough to avoid the maps you don't like.

Threads like these are a nuiscance and a distraction because they're not addressing a real issue. Other than the assault maps, which are supposed to have choke points... its kinda... the ... point.... I can think of only a couple flag cap maps with choke points that significantly affect the action or that any players except those with no fingers couldn't learn to defeat or avoid.

Its not that hard.

Originally posted by Shane
Amen to that.

There are ~17 supported maps. 1.2 will likely add 2-3 more. Within these 17-20 maps are a pretty wide range of styles and gameplay types. That is what makes DoD great. Its easy enough to avoid the maps you don't like.



1.2 mappage will be better than ever :D


and about one of the earlier responses. There needs to be another model zoo released. The one out there right now has so few models and most of them are clipped poorly. This way, once the "perfect" clip job is done, its added to the rmf and it can always be used that way.

Originally posted by {GL}DoubleD
I guess it's really just a question of personal tastes...

You could get rid of all choke points, but then you'd have a sloppy, confusing soup of action, which could very easily eliminate the "team-oriented gameplay" which makes DoD what it is.

On the other hand, you could have too many choke points, or in Switch's case, nothing but choke points... and it results in a much more straight-forward game, and requires alot of teamwork and thought to succeed, or at the least gain some ground.

In that sense, I can see why some newer DoD players and a few CS converters don't enjoy choke points so much... I mean, they're probably expecting/used to pure-action, but DoD is a bit deeper than that.

Choke points, I feel, are important in DoD. They allow for a more team-oriented game... now if people would simply stop charging mindlessly, stop and think with a few team-mates, and co-operate, they'll realize that choke points are actually pretty fun... it gives you something to work hard at to continue on. So, when you finally break that line, you get that nice "we did it" feeling... which is what made alot of the older maps so much fun to begin with.

Everyone camping in the same place isn't teamplay.

**OFF TOPIC** TheCarnage55: what happened to the 3rd map in your sig? Did you finish it? How is dod_garden going? I'm really looking forward to playing it. :)**OFF TOPIC**

sry for off topic but I dont wanna start a new thread for myself and incase others are woundering...

dod_powershift (the snow map) hasnt been worked on for about 2 months now. Ive lost interest but I may pick it up again.

dod_garden (bridge). I had a playtest with it on the weekend and have made several changes since.

dod_points (large open field one). B1 was released awhile back and didnt really become a hit. So im working on b2 right now which I have started from scratch.

if u want more info, pm me.

People will always complain about something they don't like in dod :( As Shane said if you don't like choke points then don't play maps with big choke points in them.
I'm currently working on a map that will have some very distinct choke points on it, but there will be ways to flank those choke points and try to unblock them.

Also good on you Izuno for stepping up and creating Switch unlike some people here I actually like it and enjoy the choke point play, and I'm no camper either thanks :p

personally i think choke points are fun to over come ...

Choke points were better before they added MGs to the game. MGs make it too easy for one player to pin back an entire team. Also, the noobified sniper rifles are way too effective in the hands of novices now. I would probably love switch without MGs and with 3.1 sniper classes, though that's just my preference. Though I agree with the mapper, there are enough good maps out there that we don't have to be forced into playing ones we dislike. When I see "the next map in the rotation will be dod_switch, dod_caen, or dod_flash", I generally leave the server and go find something I like. No sense wasting my time on maps that I have no interest in playing.

One thing I do wish is that the DoD team adds more maps in the likeness of anzio, donner, and avalanche, since the majority of competetive players seem to prefer these map types. Railroad in particular has better gameplay that 75% of the maps in the official rotation put together, but for some reason it hasn't been picked up.

Originally posted by Grain
Flash is a fast paced map, Anzio is not. Switch is a fast paced map, Glider is not.
Avalanche is a fast paced map, Flugplatz is not.

Flash and switch stagnate into campfests. Anzio is impossible to camp due to the multiple routes and lack of major choke points.

Would you like me to poll the people who play it competitively?

no lets not ..

Well, looks like this thread was a failure, oh well. I've pretty much quit DoD anyways, I cant compete against anyone anymore, just too many people with abilities far beyond mine at deathmatching. I'll just stick to reenacting where I possess better skills at real world warfare.

To tell ya the truth, The choke points made DoD more fun and enjoyable for me. I do think there is alot of teamplay involve in a certain choke point. Choke points is what made DoD a better and unique game compared to the other FPS games.

I dont know whats all the whinning about but if u dont like choke points or strategic gameplay, go play a run around shoot out
( which gets boring after awhile ) like UT2003/04 or quake.

Originally posted by -Sp|inter
I dont know whats all the whinning about but if u dont like choke points or strategic gameplay, go play a run around shoot out ( which gets boring after awhile ) like UT2003/04 or quake.

A lack of choke points does not mean a lack of strategy.

My point was that choke points are fine in moderation. A major reason why maps like hentau and zafod became more often than not, such campfests, and why switch more often than not, becomes a campfest, is because the maps have easily defendable choke points. if you lose one choke point, you fall back to another, and the opposing team digs into the next one up, creating a slippery slope kind of gameplay that I personally dislike. I like the rushing, the multiple points of contact, the many routes, the hunting and lunging through enemy controlled territoy which can become friendly territory in a span of 10 seconds. The flags changing hands many times before a cap is made - caps requiring near simultaneous timing to pull off, etc.

Choke points, if they are used incorrectly, can turn an otherwise good map into a map filled with stagnant areas. Take a look at zafod (although I loved zafod, go figure) - the castles on either side of the bridge would see little action - most of the action would be centered around the 2nd flags of either side. Now, I know zafod had the respawn thing as well, but choke points contributed to the slippery slope - as soon as the bridge fell to one side, the opposing team was locked like a hampster on a wheel - they could only go forward, and no other direction. The best they could do would be to rush their 2nd flag over and over again, diving into prepositioned enemies like lemmings, to be slaughtered like lambs.

On the flip side, the other team couldn't flank the last flag, and couldn't cap it without running into the enemy, who could only defend it.

And this would continue, with one side holding 3/5 or 4/5 flags for 15+ minutes.

Granted, I've seen some zafod games where people capped, but those were very few and far between.

On any maps, choke points need to be used like a fine wine - in moderation, and only in the right place. If you want the game to be centered around something, make a side-neutral choke point, but in my experience, overusing choke points as a way of controlling the flow of the map don't work out well.

If you want to see a map that has some choke points yet also has fast-paced action, took at railroad and anzio. Both maps have choke points to direct the action, but there are enough side routes that defending the choke point does not become an overridding objective over capping the map.

Its a fine art to design a map with good flowing routes and well placed choke points and flag positions, which still allow flow around the map. It should be the goal for every mapper. That said, its a hard task, and most maps do accomplish this goal well. I think the only 2 maps that fall short are switch and flash. The rest have a good balance, and plenty of variety in design.

I personally always look to design my maps with flow in mind, with another way around any particular area. And i look at layout and gameplay flow and choke points above the looks and the graphical quality. Thats my personal mapping goal.

Everyone camping in the same place isn't teamplay.


I was referring to the team attempting to eliminate the defenses. The odds that both teams are doing nothing but defending is really doubtful. Instead of one or two people charging, or random people attacking at random times... it would, in fact, be more team-oriented if they co-ordinated a single attack together, thus, choke points enable a good teamplay opprotunity... one that is rarely taken in pub play.

Anyway, I agree that this topic is totally worthless. Also, izuno, if anything I said was taken in an offensive manner, I apologize. I was not insulting your map, as I believe it is a very good addition to the offical list, and is, overall, a very well-done map... I was simply using it's large number of bottlenecks as an example.

But yeah, I just think there are too many complaints about little things sometimes.... hmm..

Originally posted by Lonewolf_45100
A lack of choke points does not mean a lack of strategy.

My point was that choke points are fine in moderation. A major reason why maps like hentau and zafod became more often than not, such campfests, and why switch more often than not, becomes a campfest, is because the maps have easily defendable choke points. if you lose one choke point, you fall back to another, and the opposing team digs into the next one up, creating a slippery slope kind of gameplay that I personally dislike. I like the rushing, the multiple points of contact, the many routes, the hunting and lunging through enemy controlled territoy which can become friendly territory in a span of 10 seconds. The flags changing hands many times before a cap is made - caps requiring near simultaneous timing to pull off, etc.

Choke points, if they are used incorrectly, can turn an otherwise good map into a map filled with stagnant areas. Take a look at zafod (although I loved zafod, go figure) - the castles on either side of the bridge would see little action - most of the action would be centered around the 2nd flags of either side. Now, I know zafod had the respawn thing as well, but choke points contributed to the slippery slope - as soon as the bridge fell to one side, the opposing team was locked like a hampster on a wheel - they could only go forward, and no other direction. The best they could do would be to rush their 2nd flag over and over again, diving into prepositioned enemies like lemmings, to be slaughtered like lambs.

On the flip side, the other team couldn't flank the last flag, and couldn't cap it without running into the enemy, who could only defend it.

And this would continue, with one side holding 3/5 or 4/5 flags for 15+ minutes.

Granted, I've seen some zafod games where people capped, but those were very few and far between.

On any maps, choke points need to be used like a fine wine - in moderation, and only in the right place. If you want the game to be centered around something, make a side-neutral choke point, but in my experience, overusing choke points as a way of controlling the flow of the map don't work out well.

If you want to see a map that has some choke points yet also has fast-paced action, took at railroad and anzio. Both maps have choke points to direct the action, but there are enough side routes that defending the choke point does not become an overridding objective over capping the map.

You're doing all this *****ing over 1 map out of 17-20. Who cares.

I would argue w/ you about why Switch is 10 times better than Zafod, but I won't. Its all personal preference and it doesn't really matter. If all the stock maps were like switch or flash or anzio or insertnamehere, you'd have a legit gripe. But, they're not.

God, this is a useless thread.

Pook, the thread was a failure because it had a woefully incorrect premise.

close plz :/

Originally posted by Shane
I would argue w/ you about why Switch is 10 times better than Zafod, but I won't. Its all personal preference and it doesn't really matter. If all the stock maps were like switch or flash or anzio or insertnamehere, you'd have a legit gripe. But, they're not.

Exactly this is a personal preferance by pook not by everyone else, alot of people love choke points alot of people don't. Also I could argue in my preference that I prefer Forest over some maps and others don't.

Alot of the grips/***** threads in these forums are due to personel preferences and not ligit reasons.