Firstly, i would like to know if a para map is even considerable for league play. Now, i'm not talking the 10 minute long snore fest para camp maps we have in 1.1, but something even better then the 3.1 para maps.

here's what i'm considering.

a 2 minute long round, 3 objectives, 2 destroy and one steal.

5 MG emplacements, one for each objective and 2 along the routes there (considering it would be a 2 route map).

small map design with action within the first 5-10 seconds.

Each defensive position must have one weakspot or general weakness, like within range of grenades from a covered position, visible from a flanking route, or little cover in exchange for an open view of target.

Now, i have some questions to ask.
What are good things to avoid? what often keeps a map out of competition (dont' state the big ones like fps hits or camp fest or brits)?

Thanks :) PS if this is a dumb idea just tell me, heh. i think a para map would be great if it was done right for league play. i know i always had the most fun on them when there was a high level of skilled players on, so that's why i'm asking you guys what a good para map for league or at the very least, clan play would be.

Most leagues just play flag capture maps. I think there might be a couple that play objective maps, but CAL does not.

If you want to make a good map though, you need multiple routes, and spread out objectives.

The problem with objective maps, however, is that teams are forced to camp in order to defend objectives. Unlike flag maps, where teams can advance and cap flags as they go, objective maps tend to see a lot more camping. Even in a 6 on 6 - you'll likely see 4-5 people rushing and 1 or 2 strictly on defense, prone in some corner by the furthest objective.

A tip for objective maps: don't put the objectives right next to respawns, and don't lump all the objectives together. Don't go crazy with defensive emplacements either, or the game will stagnate.

roger that, thanks for the advice. i already had the 'avoid kraffstoff spawn situation' in my head.

also i was thinking making this para as in 1 spawn per round. the old 3.1 style, which is why the rounds would be only 2 minutes long at max. if this is bad tell me :P

I will also make sure that every defensive spot has at least one way to get behind it or attack it with grenades, and i will keep them to a minimum of necessary ones.

also, since it's basically a 6 on 6 atmosphere, what classes are generally prefered for clan play, and what are the general restrictions? i'm unaware of those. also, bazookas.... would you prefer satchels or bazooka, i know bazooka can sometimes kill fps in a laggy area, but are they completely looked down upon or are they tolerable. i'd like to have 1-2 bazookas in the map, but they aren't necessary.

thanks for the advice, i'll keep it in my head. i have a bit of the map done already, i'll post a screenshot when i can.

imo i prefer flag maps for clan matches. I remember when playing jagd and krafstoff for a muck around scrimi, it was just like cs, you call a site and rush it.

Also I dont like satchel charges/bazooka's on them either - on caen2 it was ok because each team could only blow up certain ones.

**Moved to Mapping** at OrbMonkeys request.

OK, this is just general stuff. I'm going stream-of-conciousness here. :D

If you want to make a map for league play, it must be a flag capture map, and it cannot be in the para_ gameplay system - that game would basically become either a campfest as one team camps flags\objectives, or become little more than deathmatch, as teams mow eachother down.

For flag cap maps:

1. Gameplay first, visuals second. Your map can be the prettiest thing in the world, but if it plays like crap, no one will play it. However, if your map is so-so graphics wise, and yet plays great, people will love it (think de_dust)

2. Multiple routes - Railroad and anzio are among the finest maps around, and this is due in part to having multiple routes. In railroad, for instance, there are a number of paths one can take, and no major choke points to stagnate the game. In both anzio and in railroad, there is no single place a team can defend - all flags have multiple points of entry, side routes, and overlooks which can turn defensive moves into offensive gains, and vice versa.

3. Clear streets - the only thing more annoying than the friends list being down is getting stuck on invisible pixels when crossing the street. Use rubble sparingly. Railroad is a good example of this - insta used rubble mounds sparingly to get that "WW2 feel", while at the same time, kept it down enough such that it wasn't constantly a problem getting stuck or going over large amounts of it (a la caen)

4. Models - if the hitboxes don't work, don't bother putting models of tanks, lampposts, or whatever in - it will lead to annoyance with regards to invisible walls blocking shots, etc.

5. Elevation - a thing missing in some people's maps is elevation - it's good to have a map that makes you move and think in three dimensions. A building with multiple stories leading to multiple places, a small knoll or valley, and other elevated terrain can be used in positive ways to direct the flow of a map.

6. Don't go nuts with fortifications - A few MG emplacements here and there (think anzio, church tower and bridge balcony) is ok, but tons of them can bog the game down. The same goes for sandbag walls - a couple are ok, but miles and miles of fixed fortifications get old really quick

7. Ask for feedback from multiple places - the people here and the people at other major dod related forums will give you different perspectives - don't just rely on this forum for feedback. Also, releasing a beta version of the map, even if it is not 100% finished, might also give you some good tips as to how it plays

8. Keep the FPS down

9. If you want feedback, visit 1911, and tell people what you are doing - people will be glad to test your map in a 6 on 6 format, and give you detailed feedback, suggestions, and comments.

10. Keep an eye on the flow - if the map seems to stagnate around one flag, consider changing it's location or opening up the location to new angles of attack.

11. Experiment with 1 man versus 2 man caps, and how long they take to cap. This requires a bit of playtesting.

11. Multiple spawn exits - again, see dod_railroad - both sides have multiple exits to make spawncamping and thus stagnation difficult. It also lends it's self for the team to split up and follow different paths out onto the battlefield.

That's all I can think of for now - if I think of something else, I wil post it.

GL, and I'll be happy to playtest your map if you decide to go ahead with one.

alright i'll scrap the para then, but i'm a bit confused by this;

8. Keep the FPS down

hehehe :p

no offense to lonewolf but railraod is the worst example of "good" spawn exits. that map is like made for spawn camping entirely. anyway yeah if you go on irc to #1911 and spam that you are testing a map you will get some good people and you will get some bad people so its rather hard to test a map that way. best way would be to go to like 2 clans and ask them to scrim it and see how that goes

once or twice Ive seen whole teams trapped in spawn trapped in spawn, get 2 MGs - one in the train opposite the ramp and one on the stairs and youur pretty much knackered seeing as the mg can see you through the bush before you see him.

the trains not to hard, just pop up and snipe him, but if he's good he could keep you pinned for a while.

here's a little preview of one area of the map (roughly 1/8th of the map)

it's sort of like a virtual tour so go in presented order :P (the N texture on the wall has a ladder underneath it, you won't see that in game as it's a 'null' texture)

http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/12.jpg in the street
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/11.jpg up the ladder
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/10.jpg in the house
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/9.jpg looking out window
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/8.jpg out of house and down street
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/7.jpg a turn in the street
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/6.jpg down the street
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/5.jpg down the stairs
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/4.jpg sewer entry at stair bottom
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/3.jpg a quaint shop
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/2.jpg inside the shop looking out (looking at earlier house)
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/1.jpg back to the start


now of course this is just one tiny area, and it's a picture from inside hammer so you don't see things exactly as they will be as far as lighting and sky are concerned but i like the layout of this area a lot. i've got a layout i've prepared for the rest of the map which i'll post later.

So do you see any problems with this area i've shown? i made sure there's two routes to the same point from one place to another, and added in spots for an MG to set up in the windows of the house and the shop so either team can set up a defense down the main alley, although enemies may flank through the back street (axis can use the sewer and allies the ladder to get back there). Does that sound like a good area for league play, or is it too accesible?

also the area above is a direct route between two flags (for a current planned total of four), one is the allies 2nd flag (which will be behind the area in screen 12) and the other is the axis 1st flag (which will be in the 'black space' next to the little shop which will soon be a small plaza)

an inverse of this situation is being planned for the other two flags (axis 2nd connected to allies 1st) so i need some opinions on if this set up is good enough for clan play between these two points, before i end up having to go do some major rework if it's not acceptable :P

i don't know if it just the size of the pictures, or it being in hammer... but those streets look awfully narrow

Originally posted by Techn9ne
i don't know if it just the size of the pictures, or it being in hammer... but those streets look awfully narrow

Ya widen that main street, but otherwise it's lookin good so far. keep up the effort Orb !

well the main street was about 3 men wide, with little clutter at all (except cover placed so the allies can get into the backstreet) but i widened it to 4 now. Do you also want the side roads widened as well? i can do that if you think it's necessary (although the intent was to be somewhat constricted).

i've gotten a lot of the small beach area behind the perspective on the first screen i showed (don't worry you don't have to fight up it just move along it from one end to the other) and i've put up the axis spawn area and the underground sewer that i showed the entry to. i'll post screens tommorow to see what you guys think. i'm probably making them a bit narrower then you guys would like so let me know if that's a problem.

could you not have donner style rubble where you can only see the tip of their helmet and the rubble is the same colour as the helmet

i'll make sure to avoid that (and other camptastic scenarios) and bad hitboxes on models and lag.

ok, new pictures of the wider street, sewer, and axis spawn. it's a bit barren but i'll add more stuff later to them (not stuff that will affect gameplay)

http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/i.jpg
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/h.jpg
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/g.jpg
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/f.jpg
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/e.jpg
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/d.jpg
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/c.jpg
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/b.jpg
http://plobe.com/~orb/ss/a.jpg

Looks good so far, can you use old style sandbags instead of the new ones like in dod_railroad? If your making it for clans I highly doubt any of us will really care what it looks like as long as it plays good. ;)

way ahead of you :P

i'm ready for an alpha release about now.