Why don't more mappers make their own models?

I mean, I keep reading posts about people proclaiming originality in their maps...at the same time they're filling them with other people's models, etc. What's up with that? Borrowing other people's creation and molding them in a slightly new fashion does not make one original. Be careful with the criticism.

And, since I'm on the subject...what the hell is with all the boxes in DOD maps? I get tired of random box placement being the only element that sets dod_avalanche_clone #34 from dod_jagd_clone #45. Know what I mean?

umm mapping and modelling are two completely seperate things. as a mapper i know it can be a huge time drainer and quite sImply for me i cbf with it because ive taken along time to LEARN HOW TO MAP AND I DONT WANNA LEARN HOW TO MODEL......

Originally posted by Profiler
Why don't more mappers make their own models?

I mean, I keep reading posts about people proclaiming originality in their maps...at the same time they're filling them with other people's models, etc. What's up with that? Borrowing other people's creation and molding them in a slightly new fashion does not make one original. Be careful with the criticism. (my edit)

And, since I'm on the subject...what the hell is with all the boxes in DOD maps? I get tired of random box placement being the only element that sets dod_avalanche_clone #34 from dod_jagd_clone #45. Know what I mean? It looks like you don't know anything about mapping so I advice you to present your arrogancy and ignorance somewhere else. :mad:

I usually dont respond to this but Im the day after and this post was pretty stoned...

First as Random said, mapping and modeling isn't same thing. Its like saying to a musican why dont you learn how to paint so you can decorate your own covers? A few musicans could probebly do it but it takes time and talant to master both ....

What you dont seem to understand is that mapping is a team effort, you have one person producing the brushes that builds up the map, one person who creates the textures the are applied to the brushes, one who make models to add details to the map that cant be done with brushes and probebly also a sound engineer that can make some custom sounds.

Those who create the brushes are usually called mappers but as stated above they cant do their work alone. So mappers takes models, textures and sounds created and adds them their creation to get a good mix. Unfortunatly there arent so many models, textures and sounds around that we can use, so everything cant be totally original...

About boxes, are you sure you aren't looking for the counter-strike forum? I mean atleast I haven't seen that many boxes around... so no I dont know what you mean? I dont recall seing any boxes in either Avalanche or Jagd....

And FFS dont come in here flaming mappers in general and expect constructive critisism in return.

well done dude u said all the right things :D happy your here to represent the mappers

I find it humorous that people feel so attacked by simple questions.

I keep reading posts where mappers criticize other mappers because they aren't "original". That's what inspired my initial post above.

The point was...not that mappers should make their own models...but that unless you do make everything for yourself...you have no place to criticize others not seen as "original" as you might be.

Taking the point further...it wasn't a criticism of maps...it was a criticism of mapper attitudes present in other threads. I'm not sure where you guys missed the point, but perhaps this translation will help.

Regarding boxes in DOD maps, I'm not talking about Counter-Strike. Don't blame another mod because you have no answer for this question. Be accountable for your own creations. If you create something, own it.

Anyone who has followed mapping is fully aware how overused boxes are. (yes I know Counter-Strike has them...this is a DOD forum...stick to the subject)

Some maps are great, others are simply copied ideas with new arrangements of boxes. While again, my point was missed above, I know avalanche and jagd aren't covered with boxes...however...their CLONES are. The copycat maps...if you will. I wasn't speaking of Avalanche and JagD...but rather...their copies. Those are two great ones (by this mod's standards)...I certainly wouldnt knock either one.

I respect the work all mappers do, as its a thankless job for the most part. However, my commentary was about mapper attitudes more than anything else. I've made a few dod maps that were used in local lan competitions, and were custom creations for the sponsors running them. Thus, by contract, I was never allowed to release them. Of course, unlike many of you, I was compensated for my work. My point in telling you this is not to boast, it's simply to point out your ignorance in assuming I know nothing of mapping ;) While I haven't mapped for DOD since the beta 2.0-2.1 phase, I currently am working with Battlefield 1942 maps for the same local LAN competitions. Again, I won't be releasing them on the internet...as the sponsors have full ownership once they are complete.

Anyway, I assume that following the logic presented here by others, the "team" is also responsible for the bad maps that are made? I mean, since mapping is a team effort, the team should own all the criticism as well as the praise...no?

It's up to the mappers how they design their maps and whether or not they put boxes in them.
Furthermore you are generalizing mappers' attitudes here. Why don't you point out a few individuals that "complained about boxes" and therefore inspired you to open this, to me, pointless thread?


word.

Originally posted by kleinluka
It's up to the mappers how they design their maps and whether or not they put boxes in them.
Furthermore you are generalizing mappers' attitudes here. Why don't you point out a few individuals that "complained about boxes" and therefore inspired you to open this, to me, pointless thread?


word.

Okay...look Mr Ice...as in Vanilla...

I'm the one making the statements about boxes...

lol...

how hard is that to follow?

word to that mutha...

Dont tell me you're wearing big ol' hammer pants too?

rofl

There are copies/clones/remakes of jagd and avalanche? I don't even recall seeing anyone really make a clone of any official dod map. That's something I've personally not seen yet. There have been maps similar to each other in premise, but where completely different styles or layout. Still haven't seen what you claim to be clones though, care to show me where I could see one of these?

Originally posted by RaNd0M
umm mapping and modelling are two completely seperate things. as a mapper i know it can be a huge time drainer and quite sImply for me i cbf with it because ive taken along time to LEARN HOW TO MAP AND I DONT WANNA LEARN HOW TO MODEL......
Dabbling in both of these, I've learned that Mapping and Modelling are very, very similar. The big difference is some of the techniques and the programs. It's pretty much the same thing, building something make out of specific shapes. For mapping, it's brushes, for modelling, polygons. Both require controlling vertices and faces and whatnot, manipulating shapes, and creating something from a basic building block.

Originally posted by Profiler
The point was...not that mappers should make their own models...but that unless you do make everything for yourself...you have no place to criticize others not seen as "original" as you might be.

I guess musicans are wrong in using notes, considering they didn't invent them. I guess that they are all unorginal for all using the same 7 notes A,B,C,D,E,F,G

...it was a criticism of mapper attitudes present in other threads. I'm not sure where you guys missed the point, but perhaps this translation will help.

How can you be critical of other mappers opinions at all? They are mappers and most likely have the expeirnce and knowledge needed to relpy and adress what is being said.

Regarding boxes in DOD maps, I'm not talking about Counter-Strike. Don't blame another mod because you have no answer for this question. Be accountable for your own creations. If you create something, own it.

Anyone who has followed mapping is fully aware how overused boxes are. (yes I know Counter-Strike has them...this is a DOD forum...stick to the subject)

Some maps are great, others are simply copied ideas with new arrangements of boxes. While again, my point was missed above, I know avalanche and jagd aren't covered with boxes...however...their CLONES are. The copycat maps...if you will. I wasn't speaking of Avalanche and JagD...but rather...their copies. Those are two great ones (by this mod's standards)...I certainly wouldnt knock either one.

Ok, now prove your point. All you have to do is name one map that applies to any of the chacteristics that you have named and I will shut up.


Thats the end of my rant...ignorace is sad.

Maybe he could show some of his own brilliant genius original masterpieces.

I second that
*waits for excuse saying "Something's wrong, it won't compile like it did yesterday"*

Like the weren't any boxes in ww2? :-P

LoL Skdr....

Yes...dammit he has a point...we need originality in our maps...I mean come on Im getting fed up of walls in maps, they are everywhere the little blighters!

:D

Originally posted by skdr
Like the weren't any boxes in ww2? :-P
I'm telling you, FedEx and UPS were around and kicking back then...the German FedEx/UPS companies were known for putting Nazi eagles, swastikas, and/or iron crosses on their boxes.

on the boxes issue:
the HL engine blows graphically, yes its decent when made and the dod team has kinda saved it a little, but the genral HL engine for making things blows. This results in mapeprs having to tone down their map designs beyond what would wish, this results in being FORCED to use the cube primitve to much. good mappers can hide it but it just stands out in newer mappers maps. Critizing the comuntiy for using to many box shapes in a map just ranks you up there as super ignorant. I'm just trying to fix the miscoception if you want a better explanation PM me.

on the originality issue:
Personally looks isnt important as originality to me. Why does something need to look new to be origial? If i was to re-realse dod_flash called dod_flush but replace all the models and textures not one mapper here would call it original. When we talk about rogianltiy it coes down to a few things, concept(what your doing in the map), looks(not very important), gameplay(how the map is played). When we talk about originality we usually indicate whcih we meen and over advice on how to liven it up a little. However, since when did using something someone made for you become un original, i know the previous musican example sounds off, but its dead acurate to what you are telling us.

on the mappers attitude issue:
Summing up mappers in one whole big group may be rather nice and neat for your way of thinking, so why don't i just class all of the game players as *******es who can't figure how to do anything smarter than push buttons to move someone? Cause its a load of crap, over genralizing is stupid and pisses me off, in here you may find some mappers with bad attitudes, some with good, and some with decent attitudes but just dont like someone. We are people and contain all aspects of them, if you cannot respect that leave now.

on the modeling/mapping issue:
despite what 2nd Lt.Ben said modelling and mapping are quite different. yes there are some similarites, but not enough for every modeller to map and every mapper to model like you think possible. Modeling has greater freedom than mapping in rules and constraints, but how you work and edit it all is very different. Mapping on the other hand has very definate ways to work things. I can do both and do both well, you obviously can aswell which is why i didnt bother preaching to the choir(unless your just stupid suggesting everyone do something you can't). Not everyone has unlimited time and energy, some peopel have enough trouble wiht mapping alone and unfortunatly don't have the time/abilioty to learn modeling aswell. Insting that we do so is stupid and i hope you can realize that in retrosepct. However the ones who can't are at a disadantage nowerdays. Still saying we all should wasn't to bright.

Originally posted by Angry Beaver
on the boxes issue:
the HL engine blows graphically, yes its decent when made and the dod team has kinda saved it a little, but the genral HL engine for making things blows. This results in mapeprs having to tone down their map designs beyond what would wish, this results in being FORCED to use the cube primitve to much. good mappers can hide it but it just stands out in newer mappers maps. Critizing the comuntiy for using to many box shapes in a map just ranks you up there as super ignorant. I'm just trying to fix the miscoception if you want a better explanation PM me.

on the originality issue:
Personally looks isnt important as originality to me. Why does something need to look new to be origial? If i was to re-realse dod_flash called dod_flush but replace all the models and textures not one mapper here would call it original. When we talk about rogianltiy it coes down to a few things, concept(what your doing in the map), looks(not very important), gameplay(how the map is played). When we talk about originality we usually indicate whcih we meen and over advice on how to liven it up a little. However, since when did using something someone made for you become un original, i know the previous musican example sounds off, but its dead acurate to what you are telling us.

on the mappers attitude issue:
Summing up mappers in one whole big group may be rather nice and neat for your way of thinking, so why don't i just class all of the game players as *******es who can't figure how to do anything smarter than push buttons to move someone? Cause its a load of crap, over genralizing is stupid and pisses me off, in here you may find some mappers with bad attitudes, some with good, and some with decent attitudes but just dont like someone. We are people and contain all aspects of them, if you cannot respect that leave now.

on the modeling/mapping issue:
despite what 2nd Lt.Ben said modelling and mapping are quite different. yes there are some similarites, but not enough for every modeller to map and every mapper to model like you think possible. Modeling has greater freedom than mapping in rules and constraints, but how you work and edit it all is very different. Mapping on the other hand has very definate ways to work things. I can do both and do both well, you obviously can aswell which is why i didnt bother preaching to the choir(unless your just stupid suggesting everyone do something you can't). Not everyone has unlimited time and energy, some peopel have enough trouble wiht mapping alone and unfortunatly don't have the time/abilioty to learn modeling aswell. Insting that we do so is stupid and i hope you can realize that in retrosepct. However the ones who can't are at a disadantage nowerdays. Still saying we all should wasn't to bright.

The point was missed...I didn't intend to sound the way you guys are taking it ;) Let's just leave it be.

It's pretty sad when a forum of "adults" can't simply agree to disagree on a point. (about too many boxes in maps) without taking offense like a bunch of little kids.

Let's keep it adult...and change the subject ;) It's quite apparent that the defense mechanism around here is to insult someone who disagrees with the "clique".

All I'm saying is..there are too many boxes in Half-Life maps. If you feel you need to attack that opinion...then perhaps you're guilty of being a UPS mapper ;)

Ever walk around Counter-Strike maps? Try cbble sometime...they have like 2 and 3 story boxes ;) LOL

Come on now...mappers...get with the model people and come up with something DIFFERENT (my point really...I just came to it awkwardly).

That's all. No need for insults...no need for PMS'ing. Don't get mad...get original.

<meant in good humor...not poor taste>

Originally posted by Profiler
The point was missed...I didn't intend to sound the way you guys are taking it ;) Let's just leave it be.

It's pretty sad when a forum of "adults" can't simply agree to disagree on a point. (about too many boxes in maps) without taking offense like a bunch of little kids.

Let's keep it adult...and change the subject ;) It's quite apparent that the defense mechanism around here is to insult someone who disagrees with the "clique".


Regardless of you intention atleast I felt insulted by your first post, and as I said in my post you cant expect creative critique with a post like that, even though I tried to myself.

Secondly, you apparently can't accept that we don't agrea that there are too many boxes in DoD maps. Sure there might be a few around in some map, buts its not like in CS...

Third, perhaps next time you should give some example of which maps you are refering to since otherwise you make a hugh generalization, and as you noticed alot off people get offended by such accusations ...

Yeah :p
1) What's your "models problem"? I don't get why I should create models when there are plenty of good models everywhere. Why create next Tiger, artillery or something other? Creating complicated models is very time consuming, and you should skin it. Majority of mappers (experienced or not) doesn't create textures for their maps. For model you have to skin it fully by yourself, and proces is more complicated that texturing map. Also, you have to buy Milkshape :-\
2) What about boxes? I don't see too many boxes and I've seen many customs maps. It's true that boxes are encountered often in some DoD maps created by less experienced mappers or CS mappers, but I don't think that's serious problem in general. If you don't like some map - criticise it individually instead of yelling to everyone else 'you are too boxminded, kids'.

PS. I'm still dying to see some screenshots.

If i knew how to export a model to .mdl format or if i had any modeling ability at all i would be making a mad number of models

I exported a bunker of mine that i want to turn into a .mdl but i have no idea how to go about it, maybe one day when i get the time i will learn my self to dun it UHYUUCK !

I call massive bullsh*t on this.

This is a very old issue. If only the previous board's posts were archived you would see pages upon pages covering this issue. The facts are this:

1) HL engine is very old and there's only so much that can be done with it. As such, go to point 2

2) Mapping is hard. Very hard. Managing polygons in this engine is an art and science which takes years to master. People try all kinds of crazy things in this engine and sometimes pull it off. Official and custom mappers alike push this engine to the limits.

3) Modelling is hard. I can do some basic modelling and texturing, but at heart I'm a map designer. That said, there are mappers who can model and texture quite well. IR, Kamikazi!, Xerent just to name a few from official mappers. Many custom mappers have similar skill sets. You make it sound as if mappers are lazy and stupid. Sorry, but that's just the way you sound. You say you are the one being adult and others are not...again, I must call bullsh*t.

4) ...and such, creating maps is a team effort. Do you have any idea what it takes to make an official map for DoD? I know other people have brought this up in this thread, but it takes a lot to do models, mapping, texturing, custom sounds, etc...

I've said enough. Your comments baffle me. And you are boardering on insulting people here (in some cases you ARE insulting them). Many of these people are friends of mine and some I have met in RL. It saddens me knowing how much work people put into mapping and then have other people dump all over them. Around here you should expect a range of quality in maps.

I think I should close this thread...but I'm going to leave it open for now.

Boxes provide simple low poly cover which is good. I have no problem with crates as long as they arnt using HL textures.

Good call Izuno

I'm calling for a return of "TEh MOveAble bOx" from the old custom glider...


PS...One of the next official maps...dod_flugplatz...has DOZENS of those pesky boxes...muahahaha