Here's what's been on my mind for quite some time now, and I know not everyone will agree with me, but as long as I get a good answer for it, I'll be happy. Why is it that the rules of the forums are against "Intellectual Property Theft", yet certain people (the name that comes to mind right now is "Devin Kryss") release their models with Wolfenstein heads, and assorted gear from other copyrighted sources. It's unfair for the moderators of the forums to play favorites with certain people and at the same time clamp down on less popular/known modellers over the same issue.

Sure Devin's models may look great, but that's because they were professionally done (and stolen) without asking for proper permission. If I had enough popularity to rip models from commercial games and not get caught or punished for it, you can bet everyone would be Ooh and Aahing my "mad modelling skills". What ever happened to a little thing called "Original Work" and by Original Work I don't mean "Oh, okay, so I resized the texture to 512x512 and added a canteen to the model so now the model is MINE.

So basically what I'm saying here is, if the moderators are trying to go for fairness, letting people rip models and release them because they're popular isn't the best way of going about it. Either lax the rules or deny the releasage.

Ive thought this same exact thing for like.. 6-8 months now.. :o

It doesnt make me mad or whatever though because I know that when I make a model and release and people comment on it and say its great or whatever, that makes me feel good because I know I did everything and I deserve the comments im getting... ( not that Ive released alot but you get the point.. :rolleyes: )

I never explicitly take the credit for the models I hack, I never used words like "created" or "made" in regards to any of the SS sets. However, your right, I never took the time to write the RTCW crew and ask them, "can I use your stuff?" If I ever did get an answer to my mail (odds of getting a THANKS FOR ASKING LETTER from some mail bot somewhere seem high in my mind) it would most likely be a flat out "no". I work this on the system of "Dont ask, dont tell". Yes, its no surprise that the head's model/mesh/skin, as well as the tunic skins, are property of the RTCW crew. But hey, it looks damn good, so whats really the worry. I paid for my bloody copy of RTCW, i decided to do what I would with the skins. Granted its probably not my business to redistribute them to the masses, but look logically, small parts have been modified (all the SS sets use DoD default tunic models, hands, and in older versions, faces, legs, and helmets) to fit the parts in a old engine's freeware mod. No real harm was done, no ones been left peniless and bankrupt with me soley to blame. You cant reconstruct the RTCW game from someones hackjob involving skin pieces, you'd have to buy the game. And I dont take the credit for the work, read my release threads, I just never provide absolutly clear credits. Im fairly certain everyone can spot the RTCW heads atop of the soldat's heads, "Dont ask, Dont tell". Its not my fault in the slightest if other people give me much more credit than I deserve, its just the Model Distribution sites that slap my name by the download link, Im the compiler, the converter, and the hackjobber. Not strictly the creator, but as far as the mdl file goes, im probably the closest thing to its "creator" I just didnt "create" all of it.

(Also note, when people ask me for permission to re-release a SS hack of their own, I never turn them down, its not strictly my property to give away, so my answer is always yes)

Looking at this strictly legally, it is a vilation, but in reality, its a victimless crime. And it only serves to make people happier. By my rough total count, SSv4 has been downloaded about 9,000 times. (I kinda remembered the amount of downlaods from DoD studios and Editor 321 Models) Assume that only half liked what they saw in HLMV/ingame, and didnt install it. 4,500 people are enjoying some quality models in their game, and have more fun. Meanwhile, about 50 people (generous figure) on the RTCW production team may not be pleased with whats been done to their content, but certainly arent harmed or hurt by it.

Maybe other reasons I "Get away with it" are because The SS sets are quite frankly, spectacular looking, and far above the average sets. (call it boasting, but the 9,000 something downloads cant mean it sucks) Most sets released here are reskins of the defaults, made to be uber realsitic or just a personal touchup to some camo or something. Not to say that everythings a default in disguise, such as Jed's paratroopers, Russ's awesome skins/hacks, Cheeto's work, Triggers player models, but these sets are hard to make, and we dont have enough people making them. I provide something the community wanted: Player models that ARENT defaults, and also look spectacular. Thats precisly what my work is, its different, its interesting, its eye candy. Some will agree when I say "Who cares where its from, it looks nice".

Maybe its also becuase, and I say this as humbly as I can, i'm a nice guy. Ive always tried my hardest to give other people a helping hand. Someones compiling problem, a couple posts from Devin and the problem is usually fixed. And not to mention the people i've helped on a personal basis. Ska Warz, Marksman, Russ. Conscript, Fiblah, and others, can certainly attest to that. They've had some menial problem, so its sent to me, and I fix it usually within 48 hours, and try my damndest to explain to them what they did wrong.

Also, back in my younger years, I took a lot of mreq's, and made a lot of friends and allies. Granted I knew **** about what I was doing, and the returned requests wasn't perfect, I was one of the only people who took a damn to care. I hardly do that these days, with the release of 2.1, that kinda left me as I learned more and took my own projects on, with just not enough time or inclination to help out everybody. No one was gonna make a DAK pack for Baldrun back then, I did, it didnt look great, but it was, in the end, pretty much what he wanted. I still havent gotten around to updating that stuff, but all that jazz is in another thread. I did favors for these people, at no cost, on my own time, and i figured everyone could repay me eventually. Sorta like the Godfather. And sure enough, throughout some of the flame wars i've been at, I've had people back me up, simply becuase I attached a scope to a K43 for them, when other people wouldn't.

I can't really defend myself from what pondunkian's pointing out here. I can only rely on the powers that be, our wonderful administrators who take the time to peruse all these boards and threads, and keep people in line, on their own time, and the support of this community.

You say its hard to make models, well try keeping tabs on a couple hundred threads a day, mainting order in a complex forum system. At no pay. And its a mainly thankless task. When was the last time you guys made a "Thank you Fourm Admins" thread.

Vouch for me here guys. The Last thing I want is to be banned from this "family" as Russ put it, when im kinda stepping out the temporary retirement door. Being given the boot at the end of all this would just seem like a sad ending.

That was one on my last rants.

Fare thee well DoD boards, ill be back sometime and releae all the stuff I never did, or hacked for myself. Some of its not done, but its all good.

i fully agree with you devin, i think im out, since im no longer needed

Advertising and/or linking any evidence of theft of Intellectual Property on this forum is prohibited. Persons caught doing so will be investigated and if needed be removed promptly from the forums.

IP Theft is a legal matter that the powers that be who pay for this server do not want to get involved in.

Personally I was staring down the barrel of an email regarding the issue from a well known person from iD software. This person 'who shall remain unamed' was pissed that some people here were distributing dod models with skins extracted from the RTCW demo.

Bottom line is... Yes the skins are cool. If you go about using someone else's work then do so for yourself if your all about learning the process of editting.

Once you start distributing them to the public you are claiming responsibility for them regardless of the fact that you gave 'credit'. To get around this a person who releases original material can state that their work is released to the community for that community. Then when someone uses it, the original artist shouldnt feel bad about it and no one will be pissed off or threaten leagal action. Also you must have permission from the author of the work to reuse it. Work that is released to the community based on my above example pretty much falls along the same lines.

As for permissions from iD software to use their work. Forget it, since I know first hand that they will never authorize such a thing and any one who says they have permission is either lying or John Carmack.

You never "explicitly take credit" for your models, but we're working on the basis of common sense. If you release a model pack, it'll be plastered over the net saying "Model by Devin Kryss" implying you as the author of the model. Not at all your fault.

And about asking for permission, if the team says no, then it's a no. They don't want their crap being used in other games, and you ought to respect that, even if it's a bot giving you an auto reply. I asked permission to use a texture for a model I made for The Specialists and the author said "Go ahead, but give me credit". These professional modellers are human too, they can see why you would want to use a texture or a model in one of your releases and they will be pleased to know what you actually took the time to contact them.

Being a "nice guy" has nothing to do with anything at all. The truth of the matter is it ISN'T a victimless crime, just a violation. A man could go to the bank, steal all of the money and give it all to homeless people and charities, but that would NOT justify robbing the bank. You could "hack together" a model and release it and make 3000 people happy, but that doesn't justify the violation of intellectual property copyright laws.

There is a reason why game companies don't release their source files for the public to (ab?)use. You don't mind because you're not slaving away in front of computer as a job like the artists and creators of the original content are. Maybe after you've created a model of your own you'll realize the pride that comes with it and the frustration that comes when it is hacked up and put out without proper crediting.

With all of that said, this isn't a thread to strike you out of the community Devin. I know how much effort you put in to your work and whatever, so don't take it as a personal attack. I was rather trying to bring it to the attention of the moderator how unfair the system was in allowing certain key members get away with otherwise illegal practices.

ya got rid of both of us, so no reason to kick a dead horse and pointing fingers, that a bad way for us to go, delete the thread and let the horse die in peace for christ sakes.

Maybe other reasons I "Get away with it" are because The SS sets are quite frankly, spectacular looking, and far above the average sets. I wanted to stay away from this topic, because I could care less either way, but this quote and the rest of that paragraph kinda pushed my buttons. In my opinion the SS sets don't look very spectacular to me and I never downloaded them because they look kinda goofy and cartoonish. But I love your other work! :]

Look Editor, don't blame me for anything that isn't my fault. Devin left before I posted my thread.

ya got rid of both of us, so no reason to kick a dead horse and pointing fingers,

What a joke, that quote defeats the rest of your reply.

EDIT:

And I wasn't "kicking a dead horse", the replies above mine were written and posted as I was writing my reply.

I don't see why you have to be Devin's yes-man. I had thought there was something fishy about Devin's models getting 99/10 reviews on your site, but I had never known your obsession over him would cause you to abandon the community just because your super hero is temporarily taking a break.

plz people some stuff is from RTCW and other games but aslong you give proper credit and a link to the software,game website it is okay.

who gives a ****

might as well ban me too

Originally posted by Sgt_Rock
Advertising and/or linking any evidence of theft of Intellectual Property on this forum is prohibited. Persons caught doing so will be investigated and if needed be removed promptly from the forums.

...so why weren't Devin's SS v.4 thread along with Russ. FJ's and all the other models released on here using stuff from other games closed or deleted?

Because the item's posted were not directly linked?

I need links and evidence for proof. I'm not going to ban anyone on a whim. I am not going to ban someone unless I have proof to support why they need to be removed and they are not guilty till that is shown.

I know what people do outside this forum. It's what goes on inside that matters to me.

Personally I dont approve of IP theft but you have to look at it this way.

Some of us know the faces came from RTCW, most people dont.

Those that know - do we care? Not really, we still download them.

Those that dont know, do they care? No not really, they still download them.

If someone was making financial or other gain from using the faces then it definately is not fair and they should be punished.

Truth is, those faces are out and have been used so much that using them has become a norm around here. And WE are the ones to blame for not reacting soon enough to stop their use.

We only encouraging their use by continuing to download said models.

Using them isnt morally right but we have not right to complain when we do nothing to stop them.

- Jed

What was the point in this thread? Did you honestly think you were going to achieve something from this? This thread was doomed from the second you hit the Submit button and you must of known that.

The mods have a hard job, they've got alot of threads to view and alot of decisions to make. The last thing they need is to have the rules and procedures of the forum challenged, especially now when we have so many people leaving the community (some on good terms, some not so).

This entire thread is pointless, you could of easily PMed a mod asking them about this issuse and saved the form another arguement and more bad feelings going through the community.

Please jus delete this thread before its escalates into something worse and is closed.

Ska

The thread isn't "pointless." I am speaking from the perspective of a person who is tired of countless commercial game model rips and is interested in seeing some more ORIGINAL content.

It doesn't take a genius to get into Milkshape, import the model and textures, assign bones and compile. It DOES take someone skilled to create an original model, and it is visually more impressive. Take for example Polygon/Nomad's garand. EVEN when MOH style textures are applied to the model, it is more visually pleasing than the actual MOH garand model. Get it?

If you're going to take this thread personally, that's up to you -- I never intended it to be directed towards any one individual. This isn't a witchhunt, it's a call for more creation and less rehashes.

I've been a part of the "dod community" since beta 1.2. Anyone who's been around for as long as me can atest to the notion that this is the gheyest time in DoD history.

Originally posted by Lorda Mercy
I've been a part of the "dod community" since beta 1.2. Anyone who's been around for as long as me can atest to the notion that this is the gheyest time in DoD history.

Based on that comment I wish to immediately dispell any rumours you may of heard about myself and Marzy.

We're just good friends.

- Jed

Hahaha! :D Thanks for clearing that up.

Oh you little devil you.......:eek:

I've been playing DOD since 1.2 and was a member of the forums since 1.3

Originally posted by Podunkian
I've been playing DOD since 1.2 and was a member of the forums since 1.3

Well my Dad could still beat your Dad in a fight! :mad:

- Jed

Originally posted by Trp. Jed
Well my Dad could still beat your Dad in a fight! :mad:

- Jed Yeha, well my dad has a bigger car than your dad! ;)

Just wondering if someone was to bacically port the player models from, say, CoD and then link to their website where you can download them (full credit given and everything), would that be breaking any rules or laws, it's not like they would be making any money, or taking credit for porting something over?

I'm not saying Im going to do it, Im nearly a 100% lazy arse bugger who makes nothing and just takes takes takes, yeah so what?!?1?! :D

Originally posted by JoJo
Just wondering if someone was to bacically port the player models from, say, CoD and then link to their website where you can download them (full credit given and everything), would that be breaking any rules or laws, it's not like they would be making any money, or taking credit for porting something over?

When you buy a game you can do certain things to that games content under what is deemed "fair use" by law.

However, taking part of that game, modifying it and re-distributing it with or without credit is illegal.

Sure we'd all like to think that software companies would LOVE for us to be pointing everyone to the site where it came from.

Thing is, all the time and money they invest in making those spanky models for CoD has to be recouped and thats done through sales of the game. If someone else takes parts of that game and re-packages it up for another game, someone else is getting the benefit of their hard work without them getting the payback of someone buying the original game.

That aside, its just a moral issue and as a developer/modeller myself regardless of your good hearted intentions I'd still be royalled pzssed if you took my work and "hacked" it to work with something else.

Basically it boils down to:

If you have CoD and you find a way to extract textures/models and make them work for DoD, good for you. Thats your right under fair use of law.

But if you then share what you've done with others your breaking copyright law and will get nailed for it.

Trust me, in past years I've had Sega, Papyrus and Sierra all over my back for something similar so I know how it works.

- Jed

Originally posted by Trp. Jed
Trust me, in past years I've had Sega, Papyrus and Sierra all over my back for something similar so I know how it works.

- Jed I can just see Sonic chasing you down the street 'cos you triiped off Tails (while throwing rings at you). Thanks for the info BTW.

Originally posted by JoJo
Just wondering if someone was to bacically port the player models from, say, CoD and then link to their website where you can download them (full credit given and everything), would that be breaking any rules or laws, it's not like they would be making any money, or taking credit for porting something over?

Here is a better idea. Why not just go buy CoD and play IT?

It cuts down on effort as well, not unlike cutting down on the effort taking someone else's work and pasting it on someone else's models.

Originally posted by Sgt_Rock
Here is a better idea. Why not just go buy CoD and play IT?

It cuts down on effort as well, not unlike cutting down on the effort taking someone else's work and pasting it on someone else's models. When did I say I was going to actually pinch the models? It was just someone else had asked for them and I as wondering if wi was legal or not, Im not a modeller, I dont hack stuff and I dont even like the CoD models that much. Bloody hell!

Originally posted by Devin Kryss
I never explicitly take the credit for the models I hack, I never used words like "created" or "made" in regards to any of the SS sets. However, your right, I never took the time to write the RTCW crew and ask them, "can I use your stuff?" If I ever did get an answer to my mail (odds of getting a THANKS FOR ASKING LETTER from some mail bot somewhere seem high in my mind) it would most likely be a flat out "no". I work this on the system of "Dont ask, dont tell". Yes, its no surprise that the head's model/mesh/skin, as well as the tunic skins, are property of the RTCW crew. But hey, it looks damn good, so whats really the worry. I paid for my bloody copy of RTCW, i decided to do what I would with the skins. Granted its probably not my business to redistribute them to the masses, but look logically, small parts have been modified (all the SS sets use DoD default tunic models, hands, and in older versions, faces, legs, and helmets) to fit the parts in a old engine's freeware mod. No real harm was done, no ones been left peniless and bankrupt with me soley to blame. You cant reconstruct the RTCW game from someones hackjob involving skin pieces, you'd have to buy the game. And I dont take the credit for the work, read my release threads, I just never provide absolutly clear credits. Im fairly certain everyone can spot the RTCW heads atop of the soldat's heads, "Dont ask, Dont tell". Its not my fault in the slightest if other people give me much more credit than I deserve, its just the Model Distribution sites that slap my name by the download link, Im the compiler, the converter, and the hackjobber. Not strictly the creator, but as far as the mdl file goes, im probably the closest thing to its "creator" I just didnt "create" all of it.

(Also note, when people ask me for permission to re-release a SS hack of their own, I never turn them down, its not strictly my property to give away, so my answer is always yes)

Looking at this strictly legally, it is a vilation, but in reality, its a victimless crime. And it only serves to make people happier. By my rough total count, SSv4 has been downloaded about 9,000 times. (I kinda remembered the amount of downlaods from DoD studios and Editor 321 Models) Assume that only half liked what they saw in HLMV/ingame, and didnt install it. 4,500 people are enjoying some quality models in their game, and have more fun. Meanwhile, about 50 people (generous figure) on the RTCW production team may not be pleased with whats been done to their content, but certainly arent harmed or hurt by it.

Maybe other reasons I "Get away with it" are because The SS sets are quite frankly, spectacular looking, and far above the average sets. (call it boasting, but the 9,000 something downloads cant mean it sucks) Most sets released here are reskins of the defaults, made to be uber realsitic or just a personal touchup to some camo or something. Not to say that everythings a default in disguise, such as Jed's paratroopers, Russ's awesome skins/hacks, Cheeto's work, Triggers player models, but these sets are hard to make, and we dont have enough people making them. I provide something the community wanted: Player models that ARENT defaults, and also look spectacular. Thats precisly what my work is, its different, its interesting, its eye candy. Some will agree when I say "Who cares where its from, it looks nice".

Maybe its also becuase, and I say this as humbly as I can, i'm a nice guy. Ive always tried my hardest to give other people a helping hand. Someones compiling problem, a couple posts from Devin and the problem is usually fixed. And not to mention the people i've helped on a personal basis. Ska Warz, Marksman, Russ. Conscript, Fiblah, and others, can certainly attest to that. They've had some menial problem, so its sent to me, and I fix it usually within 48 hours, and try my damndest to explain to them what they did wrong.

Also, back in my younger years, I took a lot of mreq's, and made a lot of friends and allies. Granted I knew **** about what I was doing, and the returned requests wasn't perfect, I was one of the only people who took a damn to care. I hardly do that these days, with the release of 2.1, that kinda left me as I learned more and took my own projects on, with just not enough time or inclination to help out everybody. No one was gonna make a DAK pack for Baldrun back then, I did, it didnt look great, but it was, in the end, pretty much what he wanted. I still havent gotten around to updating that stuff, but all that jazz is in another thread. I did favors for these people, at no cost, on my own time, and i figured everyone could repay me eventually. Sorta like the Godfather. And sure enough, throughout some of the flame wars i've been at, I've had people back me up, simply becuase I attached a scope to a K43 for them, when other people wouldn't.

I can't really defend myself from what pondunkian's pointing out here. I can only rely on the powers that be, our wonderful administrators who take the time to peruse all these boards and threads, and keep people in line, on their own time, and the support of this community.

You say its hard to make models, well try keeping tabs on a couple hundred threads a day, mainting order in a complex forum system. At no pay. And its a mainly thankless task. When was the last time you guys made a "Thank you Fourm Admins" thread.

Vouch for me here guys. The Last thing I want is to be banned from this "family" as Russ put it, when im kinda stepping out the temporary retirement door. Being given the boot at the end of all this would just seem like a sad ending.
maybe you should make your own set from scratch like Russ.Conscript did. then we wouldn't be in this mess!!!

NOW GIVE ME SOME MORE DAM MODELS BEFORE I KILL ALL YOUR KITTENS!!!