Hi there, oh talented ones,

I am new to HL mapping and am getting into it. The tools are only as good
as my understanding of them and the correct process to express my ideas. I
am getting frustrated. The tutorials are good, but cannot cover everything.
So, it is time to meet helpful gamers who learn from helping twits like me
:)

1. solid object; is there a suggested limit to block size before it effects
negatively on design? Does it matter if I use a column with 12 faces as
opposed to 6? Once a prefab is created is there a way to treat the object so
as to render it more efficiently?

2. textures; does it matter if I brush a texture to sides of an object that
will never be seen? Is there a blank brush that might help with efficiencies
in rendering?

3. spaces; it seems the larger areas I build have r_speed issues. Is there a
recommended distance limit for open spaces? I also have noted a difference
in effect while building UP?

I did a test, made one area (including the sky blocks) then created a
corridor to a few ladders leading up quite a ways. Then I created another
room, with 12 chairs and a large table. Upon spawn I was able to look up
and see the room I created way above. Additionally, the map was rendering
through the sky blocks. Even when I moved out of range of view my FPS went
from 100 down to about 80. Doesn't sky texture block VIS? Isn't creating two
areas connected by corridors a good way to keep check on r_speeds values?
Can I use sky textures on one side of a surface or is it always the whole
block that gets the SKY definition? Is there a techniques one can use to
avoid making one large sky block around a map to quell leaks? What can I do
differently if I want to build a map that has a large hill...like...say
DoD_hill? Also, do I need to be concerned how the sky textures interact with
each other?

4. How can I create a large distance between buildings and maintain the
integrity of the r_speeds? I recall a few of the beach maps have much larger
spaces than what I have gotten up to, yet they seem to achieve the distance
effect I am looking for but with reasonable FPS, ETC. /me scratches head.
Also, it seems that the same space placed vertical has a greater effect on
r_speeds? Did these maps use HINT techniques or is there another work
around? Also, I cannot find the HINT texture (using Waldo's FDG) .

5. compile speeds. I built a complex map and got rid of all errors, was able
to run it by creating a .BSP, but when I attempted to compile (no HINT) my
system ran all night- over 8 hours- and was still running at around 28% of
the leafs when I returned. I was using ZHLT. Is that normal for a large map?
Is there a limit to the map size or a way to estimate compile times based
upon the size of the .BSP used for design?

Sorry if some if not all of my answers are found in a tutorial somewhere-
I have read quite a few. If so, please point me to the reference material!

I'd appreciate any help you might offer,

Matt Widder
[CoFR]Rocker

Well...good luck because you've hit on a majority of the reasons why mapping can be such a pain in the ass. My suggestions would be to look through this forum (use the search function) for r_speed reduction techniques and try the verc collective (http://collective.valve-erc.com) for some great tutorials on the same. Good luck!

1- Dont use prefabs... make it in .mdl and use clip
2- If it will be to the void, no. If its inside, like rumbles, make it 1 unit over the floor and walls, use NULL texture.
3- If you like open areas, study about the bsp creations. It begins with 1024 units. Make your room multiple of 2( 256 512 1024 2048 etc). Remember to make your 512x512 textures begin in 0. Because it splits your face in the size of the texture. Use hint. Make your chairs or whatever inside a VIS block, not between 2...

There is a lot of tricks... most of them are in net, following the links in Faq... good luck

Wow...great help... keep it coming!

/me starts to take notes

One tip on making maps compile faster. My first map was great. It's still one of the best I've made gameplay wise, but the compile times are about 5 times longer than maps with twice the size and detail. The reason? Brushes intersecting, using weird shaped brushes, and using non-computer loved numbers. Lemme explain:

If you have a brush that pushes into another brush then your compile time will take longer as the compiler needs to figure out which parts are being seen and it cuts the intersecting parts up a lot. It will also cause face splitting (you can find out about that on google or maybe here somewhere) which also increases the compile time.

If you use weird shaped brushes (read not based on triangles or squares) then the compile time will increase. Sometimes it sure is easier to just clip a big brush, but it will bite you in the compile time. Plus, simplifying your brush work also allows you to help "force" where the brushes get split and improve r_speeds.

The last tip I have for ya deals with using weird non-computer numbers. The fact is if you use brushes of sizes like 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, and so on your map will compile faster. Computers just like those numbers because of the architecture they are based on. If you try not to use weird numbers like 37 you'll probably notice that compile times improve. Now, this doesn't mean don't use them at all, but just keep that in mind. A nice simple block of 64x64x64 will compile easier than a brush that is some weird number.

Anyhow, those tips seemed to help me a lot. I can build maps using most of my planes and maxing everything else out and still compile them in about an hour or so.

Oh, a bonus tip. Buy more ram. It helps a LOT.

Monk

Originally posted by Rocker
Hi there, oh talented ones,

I am new to HL mapping and am getting into it. The tools are only as good
as my understanding of them and the correct process to express my ideas. I
am getting frustrated. The tutorials are good, but cannot cover everything.
So, it is time to meet helpful gamers who learn from helping twits like me
:)

1. solid object; is there a suggested limit to block size before it effects
negatively on design? Does it matter if I use a column with 12 faces as
opposed to 6? Once a prefab is created is there a way to treat the object so
as to render it more efficiently?

2. textures; does it matter if I brush a texture to sides of an object that
will never be seen? Is there a blank brush that might help with efficiencies
in rendering?

3. spaces; it seems the larger areas I build have r_speed issues. Is there a
recommended distance limit for open spaces? I also have noted a difference
in effect while building UP?

I did a test, made one area (including the sky blocks) then created a
corridor to a few ladders leading up quite a ways. Then I created another
room, with 12 chairs and a large table. Upon spawn I was able to look up
and see the room I created way above. Additionally, the map was rendering
through the sky blocks. Even when I moved out of range of view my FPS went
from 100 down to about 80. Doesn't sky texture block VIS? Isn't creating two
areas connected by corridors a good way to keep check on r_speeds values?
Can I use sky textures on one side of a surface or is it always the whole
block that gets the SKY definition? Is there a techniques one can use to
avoid making one large sky block around a map to quell leaks? What can I do
differently if I want to build a map that has a large hill...like...say
DoD_hill? Also, do I need to be concerned how the sky textures interact with
each other?

4. How can I create a large distance between buildings and maintain the
integrity of the r_speeds? I recall a few of the beach maps have much larger
spaces than what I have gotten up to, yet they seem to achieve the distance
effect I am looking for but with reasonable FPS, ETC. /me scratches head.
Also, it seems that the same space placed vertical has a greater effect on
r_speeds? Did these maps use HINT techniques or is there another work
around? Also, I cannot find the HINT texture (using Waldo's FDG) .

5. compile speeds. I built a complex map and got rid of all errors, was able
to run it by creating a .BSP, but when I attempted to compile (no HINT) my
system ran all night- over 8 hours- and was still running at around 28% of
the leafs when I returned. I was using ZHLT. Is that normal for a large map?
Is there a limit to the map size or a way to estimate compile times based
upon the size of the .BSP used for design?

Sorry if some if not all of my answers are found in a tutorial somewhere-
I have read quite a few. If so, please point me to the reference material!

I'd appreciate any help you might offer,

Matt Widder
[CoFR]Rocker

1. what monk said about the wierd numbers, and try to make ur brushes (solids) using the medium grid sizes in Hammer, that way it is easyer to make the solids with the right dimensions.

2. the NULL texture is basically the blank texture. u should make ur whole map that texture, then add the real textures, if u can be bothered to, but its worth it. the bigger the texture scale the better.. when u align textures, it has a texture scale, default is 1, but u can go up to 8 or 9, bear in mind the higher u go, the lower the quality of the texture.

3. yea large areas have higher r_speeds, so make the bigger area simpler, with less brushes, i'd say around 2000, but as u get better at mapping, the larger area u can go with more details, like the beach maps, tho i dont get how they are so big :confused:

and yes, HINT brushes do help, but leave those till last in ur map, there is a tut for it somewhere.

3.b. Sky does block vis, but if u can see past the sky anyway then it will apear see thru, u need to close off the area, so u cant see thru the sky, make an Z shaped corridor to see what i mean.

4. ive covered that :)

5.u should never have 8 hours!!! there must be something wrong with your map. and what some guy said about the brushes that are inside each other, that is bad..

it depends on the computer, but compile times should be around 45 mins max..

a 533mghz pc compiled a map that took 6 mins, a 1.2ghz pc compiled the same map and took 2 mins.

and 1 last thing, when making a map, start with the basics first, walls etc, and do textures and entities towards the end.

I was a noob mapper once, but i find that each map i make is better than the last one... and these forums have (and still does) help me alot. :D

i hope that all helps

I think i may write an ultimate tut on everything on mapping some day :cool:

Actually, 3d-mike has told me that some of his maps take up to 9 days to compile.

jesus.

The longest compile I had was 4 hours.

(dod_d-day test)

Originally posted by monte
Actually, 3d-mike has told me that some of his maps take up to 9 days to compile.

thats insane, 9 fricking days :O Must be dam complex and heaps of shapes and stuff comps don't like.

RAD can take a really long time if you get really complex brush work and lots of light sources, but for most peoples maps that isn't the way it'll be.

Monk

Originally posted by monte
Actually, 3d-mike has told me that some of his maps take up to 9 days to compile.

WTF!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

i suppose its possible, but i dont suggest any noob or average mapper try anything like that.

just imagine u made ur map, and u realised 1 texture is wrong..."oh well, gotta wait another 9 days :rolleyes: "

mike must have been talking about rendering a scene in max.

i dont think any compile can take that long unless your compiling
on a 286 or 486 with 20 mb harddisk and dos 1 :X

Hey, really useful feedback here. I will continue to read these threads. There is just so much to absorb. I understand that map making is an art, consequently, it will take some time. I have a lot of ideas I would like to explore... now if I could take into account all of these limitations.

I am using an Alienware 1.8/512DDR set up, which is starting to show its age. I have read enough to understand that as I progress the best way to get help on specific issues is to provide PICS and data along with the issues.


Yes, I did the standard rookie thing with my first map (after a few tutorial maps)- irregular shapes and incorrect application of textures. I made a large 6 story gothic mansion atop of a hill, surrounded by rows of houses tiered in cascading decent below the horizon line, with a moat and under-water passage ways. The east wing wall was comprised of strata of breakable windows looking out across the main rampart. It had 6 specially designed bunkers on the first floor, with a killing field centered on the two small moat bridges. The set up looks interesting from a concept point of view, but some areas get 6 FPS! hehehehe I guess the 40 or so 12 faced columns didn't help.

I am so new to this (insert wise crack and jab at the rookie) yet I am determined and engaged in the challenge. Who knows, by the time HL3 comes out I might be able to make something playable!:) Any other suggestions for someone that is interested in building UP, vs. lateral? Also, what tricks there are out there I might use in general- the NULL texture first, then paint later is a great noob idea. A lot of this stuff is learned by experience and you mappers seem to have the inside track. Thanks for sharing... share more...more!

if you are going to build UP then it should be thin, or seperate parts of the map.

ive said this b4, but when buiding ur map, draw a plan 1st, and do the walls and floors b4 any details, dont even add windows and stuff, do that later.

when u connect walls do it like this (see attached picture)

and Alienware....I envy you :(

Actuall Nomad read this article

THIS (http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?doc=1047005525-19966900) Article may confuse some new people. but to anyone wiht a clue hpw tp map read it.

/me mutters about mittering

Originally posted by Angry Beaver
Actuall Nomad read this article

THIS (http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?doc=1047005525-19966900) Article may confuse some new people. but to anyone wiht a clue hpw tp map read it.

DOH!!

The CSG process quite frankly doesn't care what faces are on what brush. It's more concerned about the texture properties themselves. The faces that lie flat against each other or the void are culled anyway, and what faces remain are combined wherever possible - assuming that these faces share the same texture, texture scale, and texture offset.

I created 2 solids - One consisted of a single brush, the other 1024 tiny brushes which shared the same texture properties. Rather than 1025 wpolys, the in-game result was 2 wpolys. This same result can be seen in the image from Anomalous Materials used earlier. Only in rare circumstances will texture splits fall along the "overlap" area between two non-mitered brushes, and in that case it's likely as a result of the standard 240-unit face splits seen on all textures. These splits would occur anyway, mitered or not.

take THAT everybody who told me i was wrong about mittering!

/me muttes a need for a mentor on mittering