Had a little brainstorm this evening about mortars. Basically I was wishing that when the Axis fired their mortars on charlie, they would target spots where players were standing (snipers and other prone people). A bit of brainstorming, and I came up with this system described below. It's a bit complex I admit. I'll aim to make a new tutorial on the http://collective.valve-erc.com site covering how it works (including source and demo map).

A little background

The current mortar system is based on a func_button under the mortar model. When it's "used", it triggers a func_mortarfield brush entity that lays over a fairly large area of the beach. The mortar field entity randomly explodes a mortar somewhere in the area covered by the func_mortarfield. Alas the area is pretty large and so it's pretty random. (Read http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?doc=1047766389-75965200 for a tutorial on making mortar setups bye the way). I'm going to assume you've read the tutorial and have some understanding of how it works.

The good stuff
OK so here's the "problem" with the above system. Say a sniper is camped out behind a hedgehog. An Axis soldier keeps firing that mortar, hoping his randomly dropped mortar will hit somewhere near. Problem is, the odds of hitting the sniper are really slim. If you were a real mortar operator, you'd be able to dial in the mortar to land near the area where you'd spotted the target. Now since we can't make really "steerable" mortars in DoD 1, we need another way to auto-target the mortar at the sniper. Here's how...


Create a trigger_relay which is triggered every time you "use" your mortar. So if your mortar's func_button is set to trigger "fire_mortar", set the name of this new trigger_relay to "fire_mortar". Set it to trigger "mortar_field_1".
Put a trigger_multiple brush entity around each spot where players like to camp. Over each hedgehog, crater, or other common "stopping spot". Set them to trigger every 5 seconds.
Place a func_mortarfield brush entity up in the air over each trigger_multiple.
Place a trigger_changetarget point entity by each trigger_multiple and func_mortarfield entity.
Name these entities with a name pattern like "mortar_trigger_1" for the trigger_multiple's trigger field and "mortar_field_1" for the name of the mortar_field. Then set the name of the trigger_changetarget to be "mortar_trigger_1", and last set the "new_target" attribute to "mortar_field_1". If you've got 4 of these sets, you'd end the attributes of the first set with "_1", "_2" for the second, and so on.
Set all the trigger_changetarget entities to change the target of your new trigger_relay ("fire_mortar" in the above example).


OK now if you've done this, here's what happens. An allied players walks into the trigger_multiple by a hiding spot. It triggers the trigger_changetarget, which changes the mortar to now "fire" the appropriate func_mortarfield that is right over the player. Now if another player fires the mortar (via use), a mortar will "hit" where the enemy is! If you've got several of these zones and several players triggering them at once, the mortar will simply fire at what ever the last to be triggered is. And since mortars delay a bit before firing, if the enemy keeps moving, the mortar probably won't hit them.

Look for something like this in dod_charlie in 1.1. It should make it a bit harder to camp the beach, at least behind cover.

Hope this wasn't overly confusing. Watch for example map some time.

its a bit confusing, but i think i get it... so when a sniper camps on a hedgehog and steps on da multiple, it will trigger the mortarfield on, so thats where wthe mortars will fire at.. so basically beachsnipers = pwned...

i had a cooler idea which involved a small little pillbox on both sides, consisting of mg42 func_tanks. that fire at allies on da beach.. that would add realism an kick out beach snipers :D

You could do that but as you see in Mythic Kruger's blitzkrieg map, the func_tank end up stopping the Allies from getting out of their spawn point. Also if the allies could destroy the MG42 then they will still be able to camp.

I'm thinking of making an Arnhem map and I might use your sweet new mortar system Waldo. GJ!

This would mean snipers won't ignore those mortar shrieks and say, "Ahhhh mortar shrieks,,, nothing to be afraid off....".

Players would learn that when they hear a shriek, they should move away else they get blown or injured!!!!

Excellent idea! While we're at it... Let's make the Caen mortars deadly again. I remember the logic for making them so undamaging was that inside 4.0 beta testers found it "frustrating" to die and not know what killed you on Caen. However, basically the same thing is happening on Charlie, and no one seems to have a problem with it while playing there.

I remember in 3.1 that if I was with a group of guys, we would SCRAMBLE for cover when we heard a mortar start coming down. We knew it was deadly... However, in 4.0, most the time we just casually step a little out of the way and take the 5 points of damage that these pillows cause.

It doesn't make sense why it would be acceptable on one map, and not another - even though there is more than enough audio warning on Caen. Bring it back, Waldo. Bring it back!

Nice idea Waldo very nice, I for one am sick of those pesky beach snipers hiding behind their hedgehogs and so forth, the mortars will drive them out from their hiding spots and into the open where they're prone to getting sniped or mged :D

/me waits to see this implemented in some new maps coming out :D

@waldo : I like your idea...
The func_mortatarfield is fun to play around with in Hammer.
in 3.1 days I had a Map with a German mdl based 150mm Howitzer, There where shells for the Howitzer lying around in the near of it. Not the same technik which fuzzdad uses. I workes wth al ot of dod_objects and the same number of capture areas.

So what I added was a Map of the area where my mortarfield was above with y anc x coordinates on the Map-texture.

On the 150mm howitzer I added two momentary_rot_buttons to control the X and Y voordinates.

So what you had to do was turning the buttons until you have the right coordinates on the scales above the buttons.
Then go to grab a shell, bring it to howitzer and then a shell was fired on the coordinates which were displayed on the scales...

that system works fine....

I will search around If I can find some old screenshots, so its better to understand. my english is not the best...

Nice idea and all it would work neat on some maps and all...

and btw, i'll probs get flamed by this but nerr! i think it's rather true. (no offence) but if waldo had to come up with a pathetic idea... despite what you think you'd still say it's brilliant. :rolleyes:

i'm not having a go at anybody; just in one my my retarded moods again :(

and btw, i'll probs get flamed by this but nerr! i think it's rather true. (no offence) but if waldo had to come up with a pathetic idea... despite what you think you'd still say it's brilliant.

was that against me ?

I dont get it right, as I said my englisch ins not the best...

SURE his Idea is brillant, I´ve never said anything that.

I found the old rmf file ans made It work for 1.0

this is what comes out

yea, great idea waldo, and poly head, that idea would be cool in maps such as charlie.

thx waldo works well, took me a few minuted to get my head around what you were saying though :D

You can actually make steerable mortars by using 2 momentory_rot_button , one for each axis (X and Y) and set them as X and Y controllers in the func_mortar_field. If you find a "golden spot" (i.e. always killing somebody when mortar is fired). set a large spread radius in the mortarfield, so enemies have a chance to get pass.

Though, it maybe look a bit wierd to have two separate sticks to manouver the mortar, but it works. :D

Originally posted by azncoolteen
its a bit confusing, but i think i get it... so when a sniper camps on a hedgehog and steps on da multiple, it will trigger the mortarfield on, so thats where wthe mortars will fire at.. so basically beachsnipers = pwned...

i had a cooler idea which involved a small little pillbox on both sides, consisting of mg42 func_tanks. that fire at allies on da beach.. that would add realism an kick out beach snipers :D


We had MG's etup this way in testing...if you think the lag on Charlie is bad now...trust me on how bad it would be with MG's firing.

What happens if you have more than one area occupied with an enemy? Isn't that going to have conflicts with the trigger_changetagets running over each other?

nope.

as Waldo said: only the last guy triggering a multiple will get a hit so no conflicts there.

gonna have to try waldos idea, but it seems a bit to much like autoaim for my liking.

poly that was the original way of doing tihngs. every mortar isn't always gonna have a map.

I have another idea for aimable mortars, but it requires movewtih so I never got to try it. it wouldnt work in 3.1 for me and now it dosnt work in 1.0, so untill we get working "movewith" I'm not gonna bother typing it out :P

nice work, Waldo.

this smells like a code change down the road, similar to the func_breakable stuff we did during 1.0 development. can't wait to see this in full action.

/me has map idea

On yet another DDay map, have the bunkers FULLY protected with sandbags, so that only a few MGs stick out, and they can mow down allies like nobodies buisness. Give each a tiny hole to see a portion of the beach, ect. If the allies manage to blow the shingle they can scramble up the hill. Becuase most axis would be in the MG huts, the allied objective would from that point be somewhat easier, seeing as how it took like 10 minutes to get off the damn beach. Put tnt on the door of the bunker, and blow it out, killing all MGers, destroying the MGs and the bunker itself. From then on its your usual blow something up objectives.....

Blow up 4 88s.

88 1 fires on left, 88 2 fires on right, 88 3 fires on center, back and 88 4 fires on center front, this way with good team communication, axis could say "allies coming up left" and a small squad on the 88 left could fire a round. This promotes teamwork and not rouge sniping. *thumbs up*

sounds like a good idea, but i dont think everyone wants to be an mg, or have i missed something?

Originally posted by azncoolteen
so basically beachsnipers = pwned...



All right! Nice thinking Waldo

What about the very edge of the beach, snipers often sit there to be invisible, but if you put these mortar points there they would constantly be set of by people running out of the water so the mortar rounds would almost always fall there and to no effect.

If you didn't set that for a mortar trigger spot then the beach snipers still have one of their most potent spots. Another thing you could do with that is have "waves" so that the border between water and shore is always changing.

Or have a trigger_push move in cycles to push them out of the water. Time it to the speed of the waves and it'll be a neat effect.

Originally posted by Waldo
Now since we can't make really "steerable" mortars in DoD 1
omfg there SHALL be a DoD2!!! All hope is not lost!!!!!!!!!:D

Originally posted by Eklund
What about the very edge of the beach, snipers often sit there to be invisible, but if you put these mortar points there they would constantly be set of by people running out of the water so the mortar rounds would almost always fall there and to no effect.

If you didn't set that for a mortar trigger spot then the beach snipers still have one of their most potent spots. Another thing you could do with that is have "waves" so that the border between water and shore is always changing.

The "legit" players will keep moving up the beach and not get hit, and the ones that stick around (or are AFK) will get hit.

Will people who activate the mortars get a point? Or will those *******es who get blowed up just register as mysterious deaths? And what about legitimate hiding behind the obstacles? Like where you've got MG's nailing everyone on the beach and you've got to hide behind obstacles to advance. Maybe set the delay to fire the mortar fairly high?

Originally posted by Cheeto
Will people who activate the mortars get a point? Or will those *******es who get blowed up just register as mysterious deaths? And what about legitimate hiding behind the obstacles? Like where you've got MG's nailing everyone on the beach and you've got to hide behind obstacles to advance. Maybe set the delay to fire the mortar fairly high?

They only fire if someone "Uses" a mortar to fire it - so the person firing gets a point just like they do in the current ones.

it would be so cool if you were able to give someone the coordinates of the enemy's position and have whoever's manning hte motars or EVEN the 88Flak Cannons. but i guess that's no possible with the HL engine!:(

ohh yeah. hey waldo will we see this new system u thought up be implemented in dod_charlie:confused: I hope so!!:D

Originally posted by DEVILDOG
it would be so cool if you were able to give someone the coordinates of the enemy's position and have whoever's manning hte motars or EVEN the 88Flak Cannons. but i guess that's no possible with the HL engine!:(
How about using the radio (tower) to call for artillary support(from inland) to bombard the beach randomly. Say you can only use the artillary support every 2-3 minutes to prevent spammage and massive overkill. Sorta like using the air support as seen in dod_campagne. :cool:

or maybe implement what dod_dog1 did. where u had the artilllery fire was very deadly and the only way to make the artillery less effective was to run up the beach and destroy the radio which was giving the cooridinates. i always loved that!!:D

Originally posted by DEVILDOG
it would be so cool if you were able to give someone the coordinates of the enemy's position and have whoever's manning hte motars or EVEN the 88Flak Cannons. but i guess that's no possible with the HL engine!:(

of course thats possible...
just look at the first side of the thread and read my posts, its just the system you are talking about...

you need to teamsay 2 coordinates to the "gunner" and he can fire at these coordinates, the overviewmap which is on the screen could be moved to every other place in the map...

Well then for hte love of god implement in NOW!!! ohh pretty pretty please!!!!:D this would also be awesome on caen adn dod_verdun or dod_clervaux3b!!!!

Where's Waldo:confused:

Originally posted by DEVILDOG
Where's Waldo:confused:

oh he'll be planning some evilness in his evil hideout :(

Originally posted by DEVILDOG
Where's Waldo:confused:
i say dat every day and yet nobody can answer me...

hes on irc!

Here's my current "ideal mortar" concept in the secret "future dod ideas book"...


Players can drop primary weapon and pick up small mortar launcher - pretty much how you pick up a bazooka now.
Player can deploy the mortar sort of like an MG - however they may leave it there (and someone else can take it if they "undeploy" it)
Player gets a dynamic "circle" drawn on their mini-map. The circle represents the range of the mortar.
Player marks on the map where they want the mortar to land.
Player fires mortar - which hits as best it can on the marked spot.
If a friendly player is observing the target spot, the mortar is more accurate (as if they were giving coordinates and corrections).
Players have a limited amount of mortar ammo, just like any other ammo type.


Sort of makes you start to see the potential of the mini-map doesn't it?

A few other things for the mini-map that might be possible...

The map image is actually multiple images layered together.
Certain layers are only visible to certain teams
Events in a map can trigger the drawing (or hiding) of a layer. Similar to the env_message and how it can create a text message visible by just the triggering player, one team, the other team, or everyone, one could have map overlay images visible only to the triggering player, a whole team, or everone.


So imagine each team starts out with a limited map - they only see the side of town (if it was a town) that they occupy. But as they explore and enter new areas, new parts of the map are drawn for their team. Perhaps if they capture a flag in an area, that area is "marked" as theirs via faint color overlay (red, blue, green, etc.)

So many possibilities, so little time :^)

so in 1.1 ( or 1.2 )

There will be a mortar? Sweet :D

@ waldo, I like the idea of of the movable mortars makes for more interesting gameplay and tactics, now seeing you mentioned the mortars would be like the bazookas this would mean that only certain maps where the map maker decided the players could have the mortars? am I correct?

The mini map idea sounds good to, it would make people use it more like myself, who actually has it turned off while playing.

*me can imagine charlie, every axis getting a hold of a mortar, reigning hell on the two seawall exits :p ohh god the horrors!

Originally posted by Sly Assassin
@ waldo, I like the idea of of the movable mortars makes for more interesting gameplay and tactics, now seeing you mentioned the mortars would be like the bazookas this would mean that only certain maps where the map maker decided the players could have the mortars? am I correct?

The mini map idea sounds good to, it would make people use it more like myself, who actually has it turned off while playing.


For this scenario to work that's correct...the mortar would be added by the mapper as an additional weapon...there would obviously have to be some code worked to allow the mortar to "land" at the designated mini_map "target"...kinda like dynamic mortarfield that can be tied to the map...could then make maps where you cannot physically see a target but must shoot at it w/mortar using map...objective-type maps where mortars are used instead of bazooka's.

We also talked about using binoculars to "mark" targets for the mortar...so you have one guy up front marking a target on the mini-map by viewing it through the binos and then that sends a message to everyone requesting mortar support at that location...the mortar guy would then have to move to a position where he could reach the target area and so on and so forth.

Originally posted by FuzzDad

We also talked about using binoculars to "mark" targets for the mortar...so you have one guy up front marking a target on the mini-map by viewing it through the binos and then that sends a message to everyone requesting mortar support at that location...the mortar guy would then have to move to a position where he could reach the target area and so on and so forth.

That sounds like a very good way to promote teamplay also, alot of the time though I'd think this wouldn't work unless the 'spotter' for the Mortar operator was a friend or clan mate etc. As on public servers theres usually a lack of overall team play and just general 'frag' and flag whoring.

For clan matchs on the other hand this would work great.

One thing though I will ask that I just thought of, if this mortar system was added in and you could 'zero' in the mortar on a certain area, wouldn't people be able to 'zero' in on certain objects, like for example a destroyable wall. Now the mortar would land beside this wall (maybe even hit it from its arch downward) and blow up, expelling what ever damage it does in the imediate area. Which is usually enough to kill someone.

Now if this was possible wouldn't people be able to use the mortars as a bazooka or tnt type thing?

Also would mappers be able to make destroyable roofs, walls etc that the mortar team could blow up?

If so this would bring alot more options for mappers and also for players to get rid of those pesky snipers or mgers ;)

Originally posted by [:C:]Zer0
so in 1.1 ( or 1.2 )

There will be a mortar? Sweet :D

No not in 1.1/1.2. Just an idea for the future. DoD 2 kinda stuff.

thats a good idea, sounds like fire arms which is more team play.

a person with benoculars, hmm sounds like a new class.. maybe a scout??

and a morter, maybe another new class, and artillery person??

and the mini map idea is great, it allows for more interesting objectives. :D great thinking waldo :cool:

Originally posted by Waldo
No not in 1.1/1.2. Just an idea for the future. DoD 2 kinda stuff.

So whens DoD 2 planned Waldo? Not that I'm expecting an answer on this, but ya know we'd love to start mapping for Dod 2 asap ;)

I for one would go nuts with a field deployable mortar. But then again I have a soft spot for heavy weapons and jobs that require teamwork. Hence why I'm normally team MG currently...

It might be a little too powerfull in fact reading over your auto-directivity arguments. But for example the lower ditch defenses on dod_glider or similar would be murder w/ something like this. Get a MG up on the glider to stop the direct offensive... have other guys tell the mortar when to start shelling the area just around the corner and the bushes... you see where that's going. It would make the lower approach practically impassable. Especially if I can steer where in the path I want the shells to land off the mini-map and getting the stream of reincormcements to drop ammo for the mortar shouldn't be a huge problem...

It might be better if it was somehow tied to a scout/officer class. EG: scouts primary armament is field glasses zoom em in like a sniper rifle but without the circular reticle. 'secondary' would be a carbine w/ reduce ammo load and no grenades. Reason for making the binocs primary weapon is to stop people from dropping their carbine to get a better weapon and continuuing to spot. I don't think 2 man solutions like this are very likely though...

It would go something like this... I spawn with a KAR/STG/BAR/... I drop it to pick up mortar. My buddy the spotter spawns ditches the weak popgun for his favoured gun while I grab the mortar.

it is true that u could spam morters in a place, but if they are fairly in-accurate then it wont be a major problem, but good enough to use, like maybe 5 meters in-accurate

Out of curiosity, what will this do to server lag? Charlie already chews up the resources on even my best box. It just seems like a lot more for the server to send and relay. I fear the map spiking every time a mortar is fired.



Which brings me to another question that I doubt you are allowed to answer. Are you at liberty to divulge how resource intensive HL2 will be on the server side?

Originally posted by Waldo
Here's my current "ideal mortar" concept in the secret "future dod ideas book"...


Players can drop primary weapon and pick up small mortar launcher - pretty much how you pick up a bazooka now.
Player can deploy the mortar sort of like an MG - however they may leave it there (and someone else can take it if they "undeploy" it)
Player gets a dynamic "circle" drawn on their mini-map. The circle represents the range of the mortar.
Player marks on the map where they want the mortar to land.
Player fires mortar - which hits as best it can on the marked spot.
If a friendly player is observing the target spot, the mortar is more accurate (as if they were giving coordinates and corrections).
Players have a limited amount of mortar ammo, just like any other ammo type.




Really nice idea waldo, but for that to mesh with your ideas for the minimap the explosions would have to real physical effects on the terrain. Imagine avalanche with no, thats right NO ruined buildings, as the battle commences and things are blown up or through the map would evolve. Each map would have its own quirks. (Although you can guarantee the clock tower would always be wrecked!)
I realise that this may not be possible under half life 2, but it would make for interesting future development.

Originally posted by Waldo
So imagine each team starts out with a limited map - they only see the side of town (if it was a town) that they occupy. But as they explore and enter new areas, new parts of the map are drawn for their team. Perhaps if they capture a flag in an area, that area is "marked" as theirs via faint color overlay (red, blue, green, etc.)

So many possibilities, so little time :^)

Yeah, this sounds kinda like starcraft.

I'm tellin you waldo, Do it like it does in HL. Give it a grid and have it so you have to match them both up to land where you want it to. That way, it would be better to have a spotter, who could mark it on the minimap, and you can look at the mortar grid map and mark it there and fire on it. I think it would be MUCH better and easier that way.

wow waldo thats a nice idea you came up with.. I love thinking of ideas like that and whatnot then actually figuring out how to do it and what entities... it always amazes ppl

like you amazed me.. good work

omg, imagine the horror of some geek uses the mortar to bomb his own spawn (on server with tk, or not tk if the mortar hits everything even own team)

and there are actually ppl doing that stuff (/me looks at myg0t and owp)

Although not the same it sounds a similar method i came up with for De_Dustier a couple of years back, where i made an eagle fly randomly around the map, and if a player/players was stood in certain places around the map and the eagle flew by it would screech to give away your position, but if no players where stood in these places it made no sound.

I do intend to use the method again when i return to map building for dod, and hope to add some wildlife into the maps. Like maybe using an owl instead, and maybe birds in bushes that randomly appear around the map.

Anyway enough of that for now, i look forward to seeing your mortar method working in 1.1.

Oh man Marzy, can you imagine para_hedgerow with wildlife? The team stalks slowly towards the 88's, nerves high and tense, fingers on the triggers and the silent night just waiting to be torn apart like a sheet stretched too far. As they sneak past a bush, they hear a rustling sound, all of em point their guns at it, and an owl comes flying out chasing after a rabbit. A nervous private gets the **** scared out of him and sends half his Thompson rounds into the air, which are answered by a nearby MG-42 opening up on their position in a blinding flash and deafining roar.

How would you change back to the generic mortor field target?

Another Idea I thouht of was on the path to the exits maybe put a couple of these triggers, and have the fields be maybe 3 or 4 seconds of running time (or however long it takes the mortor to fly) away from the trigger. Once you got the timing down, man that would be deadly.

I say keep mortars how they are but for charlie do this


If a player's XYZ don't change in like 20 sec then a mortar comes down and kills them. no team gets the kill though.

Top that off with the 3 mortars already on the map and you got one hell of a massicre. This way when they stop ot aim at a MG42 crew in the bloackhouses he gets his ass blown off.

ok i have an idea to aim the mortar, just came out of the top of my head, ok here it goes.

you press your use key near a mortar the player then goes into a spectorator kind of view where hes looking over the mortar at the mortars hitting area he then can move the mouse to put his crosshair on a target. well that was just an idea it might be lil easier for others to undersrtand when playing.

yea, like the commader view in natrual selection. maybe something for dod2