It seems now adays that there is little creativity in the design of DoD maps. Now for example, lets look at the beach maps. All of the beach maps that i have played in DoD have the same two bunkers and generally the same exact design with very little creativity on top of that. When it comes to lack of creativity nothing seems to fit this description then the constant 'destroy the 88s' objective that many custom maps seem to adorn. Its almost as if this is turning to that whole 'plant the bomb' objective for every goddam map. So i say come on mappers be a bit more creative.

If you look, you will find more creative stuff.

Theres not a great deal you can do to a beach map though, 3 bunkers is too much, 1 bunker will get camped on too much, you cant have huge areas of openeness that looks good.

Destroying 88's is common because compared to other objectives it is the simplest of them all and thats where everyone starts.

Just to tell you I've made a "kill Hitler" map -> dod_foxley_b1. This is a beta1 so there's still a lot of work to bring it to a very good map but the scenario is quite original IMHO.
Xerent told me to change the main objective as he wouldn't like to play the map as an Axis (defending Hitler is something he could never do, even in a video game).
Almost all mappers seem to put great effort into the looking of there maps but objectives are always the same. We ALL have to be a lil more original if we want people out there to play custom maps.

change the "kill Hitler" to "kill Rommel"... now that would make it all the more interesting. :D

or "kill the generic high ranking german wermacht officer
:E

Personally I'm not too bothered about the objectives on an assault map, as long as the map looks good and has good gameplay I don't mind.

Killing a person for an objective seems kind of wierd.. especially when they magically come back to life in the next round... But I guess its original.

Yeah, theres not much more you can do with beach maps...

theres plenty of creativity if you look. Like my map altohugh its kill everything it has a very nice little spin on it. and no I'm not going to elobarte untill i get to the preview stage.

Where have you been the last 5 betas?

Originally posted by SeRuM
Xerent told me to change the main objective as he wouldn't like to play the map as an Axis (defending Hitler is something he could never do, even in a video game).

You do it ever time you pick Axis.

Originally posted by Faceman
You do it ever time you pick Axis.

Oh shi

yeah, change it from hitler to something else. Also i think the reason why 88's is a comman objective is because there were a lot of those in WW2 and a lot of them were objectives by the allies. They also fit well into maps. And they're easy, and where everyone starts.

Oh and....Killing a person for an objective seems kind of wierd.. especially when they magically come back to life in the next round... But I guess its original


Then wouldnt that make blowing 88's wierd, and taking the same city over and over again, and capturing the same documents....

This guy was so [can't find the word] that some generals tried to kill him. I agree with Xerent, even the axis side did not defend this person. The assassination idea is good though.

Kampfer/Burns, you talk to us about creativity. Well, please take your Hammer editor v3.5 with Angry Beaver's fgd file, and show us what you can do. Some people have ideas, others have technical competences. That's true we should work together, that's how the best maps are created (or by a lonely person very intelligent)...

I agree with your beachmaps suggestions though. I'd see some moving tanks (the Marzy's Cromwell for example), firing with their MGs and their main gun. 2 maximum, due to a limitation of the 'Entdata' compile stuff. I'm sure dod_charlie would be much different if the engine did not impose its rules. Cya in HL2.

I agree when you say there is a lack of creativity. Take a map, change 2 streets and call is 'themap_classic' is not fair. At least it should be called 'themap_revisited'. There is a lack of creativity ok, but what do you want exactly? Tell us and we'll do it. Our philosophy is that a great map is "when the player is happy".

Are your beachmaps suggestions real suggestions? No. You just say "What you do is wrong" but don't say more. Please say more.

I just can't wait to see the almost endless possibilities of the maps that the HL2 engine will be able to handle. Just think of a beach map for DoD on the Source Engine:eek: :eek: :eek:

Originally posted by Kampfer/Burns
change the "kill Hitler" to "kill Rommel"... now that would make it all the more interesting. :D
You mean the Commando mission the night before Operation Crusader?

Yeah I know the mission. It endedup they raided the place and that Rommel was a hundred k's away fighting on the frontline.

Almost everything in HL2 can be done in HL1, just HL1 does it not so perfectly and requires much more effort.

The attitude pple should adopt is: ANYTHING is possible...It all boils down to the method of solving the problem and doing it.

You can't blame the lack of creativity of beach maps. No one provided any concept art, reference images, or such. SPR and MOHAA is the concept art that most pple follow....thus those non-historically correct Omaha bunkers. Of course, if u want creativity, let's make a flowing water stream that sweeps into a curving beach where on the western side there's a nice cove and tall cliffs and flowing water and pylons along the water shore,etc. There's some dead fishes and fallen logs and there are 2 ramps that lead up to a road in a triangle shape with 2 underground shelters....what a beautiful beach map. The power lines travel all across the beach cliffs, . etc.

The only thing that botters me to much about creativity is that almost every custom/official map with objectives is this way -> allies atack, axis defend

VIP Assasination/Hostage Rescue

monster_allied_barney

Trigger Condition: On Death
Trigger Target: axiswin

It's cute. They say , Okay Gordon, I'll cover you.

After playing a bit Wolfenstein Enemy Territory, I came up with this idea, and will probably use in one of my future DoD-maps: Engineering. Like reconstruct a fallen bridge, or rebuilt MG-nest. But how can this be possible? My theory is using dod_object with a toolbox model, which you pickup and carry away to a capture-area with a delay, say 30 seconds, to simulate a construction has begun. And after being "captured" it triggers the thing to become visible, thanks to the handy entity func_wall_toggle. Or using env_render to make the bridge additive and 80% transparency (or any of the like) and become "solid" after capture/construction. But it would kinda silly if soldiers could run over a very transparent bridge, so therefor the brigde should be a func_illusionary changing transparency with a env_render, and a fake collision-hull using func_wall_toggle. Of course its turned on when the bridge is reconstructed. With a little thinking, you can make the bridge both reconstructable and destroyable, over and over again.

This was just one of my wacky ideas. And this was just pure theory, I haven't tested it yet, but its seem to work :D .

I've started looking into HL level design cause I was bored with very similaro designs. In 90% of all maps you may finde maybe 5 different kinds which are copied with some changes. Then after a while I've realized that the only good and naturally looking thing you can make in DoD is ruined city. Really. HL limits including some from Quake 1. Low texture memory (recommended) limit, low entities limits, some fancy entities 'not-recommended' for multiplayer, bugs, etc, etc. So it's hard to make good standing out map when you try to build one when you don't have texture artist and modeler at you own command. I would rather say that lack of creativity is more seen in gameplay effect, not visual side.

PS. I am making beach map which look and playe different. You can't reinvent wheel there because of HL limits especially on wide open areas, but I think it would play really better than typical already available maps (hm, probably every mapper thinks about his designs this way :p). But as for objectives you couldn't do much on the beach that time :). Bunkers, Radios, Artillery, I don't think that were much more to do.

you know what would rock. the allies have to build some defences on a bridge before the tanks get there. An axis scouting group up front has to hold them off. The allies would have to carry sandbags and welders and things. I think I'm gonna pop this 1 in map ideas...

errr sounding a bit like tfc, or some sort of stratagy fps

Reccomend it to the guy who made Ramelle (forgot what he renamed it to in 1.0).

its merderet

anyway the bridge idea is cool
my 2 cents:
allies or axies are on the run cos they know a great enemy force is on its way to their town. the only way out is a destroyed bridge. the bridge is a capture area that has 4 or 5 different states.
1. bridge destroyed: only the 2 ends
2. 25% complete, some metal is up in the supports
3. 40% complete, the metal structure is complete
4 over the metal structure some wooden boards or something like that begin to appear
5. bridge complete, the scaping team can cross and wins
if the enemy reinforcements reach the town first, the attacking team wins
the problem to be solved here is how to make a capture area pauseable (if the engeneer is killed, the bridge is not longer being constructed and its on hold NOT reseting)
to do this it might be possible to make 4 flags that arent displayed in the hud, and 1 last flag that is displayed. all the flags must have targeted an env_render each that makes the bridge appear.

err.... this should be in the map ideas sticky... :/

well if you used a trigger multiple and a game_counter it may be easy to do. every second someone is in the trigger multiple it targets the game_counter at the game counter limits it triggers the new stage and resets itself to 0.

The only HL limit i see (if you let player models remain the same size), is the 0.4 km by 0.4 km Hammer grid....which is more than enough for what you want for a 36 player server on-foot 1 spawn area server.

I've thot of certain things in RTCW b4. Like how each guy can carry parts of an MG42 (tripod, ammo, mg42) and deploy them at a certain spot. Then you can use the MG42 to spray major fire on enemy! <- could someone make this? I have the MG42 brushwork with the p_model textures, i have a tripod model and you can use the mg42 ammo boxes so just do the entity work..

Problem is, a lot of RTCW things are very unrealistic. The fact that you can build/rebuild a bridge in a few sec. Repair/Disable a tank in few sec. A tank that can't be permantly destroyed, etc.

Originally posted by Kampfer/Burns
change the "kill Hitler" to "kill Rommel"... now that would make it all the more interesting. :D
Don't touch Rommel lamo :mad: he was a brilliant strategist and tactician even if he was fighting for the Axis side.

Btw you gusy should learn to use more of a variety of bunkers. There are lots of them out there disguised as all kind of normal looking buildings. The hightower bunker with the beachhouses to the right (allied pov) is a classic but never used.

Im making a map where the allies are fighting in and around a big estate. I haven't worked out what missions there will be, but this map will be about fighing inside a big house, which hopefully will be a change from the regular gameplay.

Originally posted by Glidias
I've thot of certain things in RTCW b4. Like how each guy can carry parts of an MG42 (tripod, ammo, mg42) and deploy them at a certain spot. Then you can use the MG42 to spray major fire on enemy! <- could someone make this?

yeah it can be done. just that the spot has to be fixed in a place. couple of dod objects, renders, managers... a good mapper (that excludes me) can do this.

The limits of the HL engine are not only the 0.4x0,4 of the hammer grid. You gotta count with the 4 meg texture limit, the entity limits, the plain terrain, r_speeds for gameplay... but overall is a great engine and i like mapping with it. and hammer is about the only mapping tool easy enough for me to underestand :D

Originally posted by Craftos
Then after a while I've realized that the only good and naturally looking thing you can make in DoD is ruined city. Really.
I disagree...you can make just about anything you want - you just have to be very patient and never expect too much out of the engine.

Originally posted by -iNw-Andy
I disagree...you can make just about anything you want - you just have to be very patient and never expect too much out of the engine. Yeah, that's I'm talking about - I am expecting kind of reality, in HL can't have it ergo -> DoD = ruined city only. If you know any other type of WW2 realistic look&feel map I would be glad to see it.

Originally posted by Craftos
Yeah, that's I'm talking about - I am expecting kind of reality, in HL can't have it ergo -> DoD = ruined city only. If you know any other type of WW2 realistic look&feel map I would be glad to see it.


there are a couple maps (released ones and ones that are still in the making) that prove your point completely wrong. Take a look at Glidias' sig for example... Sweet ass snowy forest he got there.
Watch out for dod_campagne in the near future too. It is a very wide open country side map and it's got it all. Flugplatz is another good example. It's set in a industrial airport area and looks quite unique compared to the other maps out there.
I could list lots more but you get the idea....

Basically, you can do much much more with HL than you think. The problem with most custom mappers is that they are too afraid to try new things and rather stick to the old and succesful yet overused blown-up-city-concept.

Be courageous, try something new. It works, believe me.

I have expected that you point maps like these.
Glidias pics look cool but I doubt it's a fully functional map. Eventually it ends quickly with sharp edge or flat line of trees (a'la dod_forest). Also you can easily see sharp edges of large polygons as ground (not snow but kind of ice hard as diamond, no foot marks, etc.)
Dod_champagne - I have seen just screenshot you fully working map so I can't talk about it, but I think It won't differ too much from , for example' dod_hedgerow or dod_verdun. Of course it looks nicer, but it will have:
- big flat-polygons acting as ground, long rooms w/o exits as roads (with hedgerows or stone fences), very little foliage and even that is unusable as cover.
- some buildings a little accesible (but not more than 30% of all, and probably just 1-2 rooms).
As for dod_flugplatz - it is ruined city. A very little difference is that it has more industrial textures. Few accesible buildings, and airfield which has length about 100 m.
I am not thrashing these people's work. They have done great job for HL engine, but it's far from realism and even quite far from graphics you can get now in newest games.
I am insisting about that ruined cause I've tried many things, and when you try to do some more creative you pretty much hit some of HL limits and you will have to cut out much of your creativity to make map working decently, but then it will look 9in general) like every other map of that type..

You can make the overall map epoly higher than 5000. But i'm keeeping the default epoly averaging around 3000 (max 4500) at the most (lower than dod_forest). For the outside scenery, the custom modellers (i'll provide them source files) can add more trees and props if they wish so the distant scenery doesn't end abruptly with a treeline. They can also extend out the landscape bigger if they wish and use real trees (instead of treelines) if they wish. This basically does the job of making the world looks more detailed and larger (which uses more epolies of course...if higher end users can afford that)....In the meantime, i'm keeping the defauly epoly low. Custom modellers can add decoration and detail if they wish to let the landscape extend beyond visual range.

Recently, i've realised i still have plenty more of clip nodes to spare, so i've increase the size of the landscape slightly (added new land) and have decided to add another woods on the right hand side which is curretnly now is totally bare and empty. NO work done yet for that part. Once that is done, then i'll do the already-planned objectives. Then, i'll consider adding a destructable tower in some corners that would allow snipers there to snipe from 1 corner of the map to the 2 other adjacient corners. Snipe across a distance of 8192 units in either direction, that is. Once that is done, than the map would be done.

http://www.wordmaster.org/1.jpg
http://www.wordmaster.org/2.jpg
http://www.wordmaster.org/3.jpg

I haven't changed the vis distance to an extremely high value. THat's why some of the treelines get unusually cut. I just made some mistakes designing this map. So don't blame me. Another mapper can do better. Those sharp squares were "last-minute" brushwork i did due to poor planning and random experimentation. If i had planned everything earlier, those sharp squares wouldn't have existed and i would have ensure the transition was more gradual and smooth. The trees also need some fixing...and the textures brightnesses needs to be adjusted. (all these are planned once the final compile of the map is done. After final compiling, only then will I play around with the external texture brighnesses of the .bmps. before i release it. )

@ Craftos

Comparing Campagne to Verdun...... Campagne makes Verdun look very very very basic.


You have to remember that we are capable of making maps how you want them with rolling terrain and hills. That is no problem, the problem comes when you want them to be playable.

Making the map playable > Making the map look fantastically realistic.

ok craftos, we do the beest we can with the HL engine. the HL engine has the tendancy to want the level to end at one point it really dosnt like the "realistic" spaces of area where the map fades out. mappers add those where they can but asking for it throughout the map is asking "well just give me a tiny box then"

Originally posted by Ginger Lord
Making the map playable > Making the map look fantastically realistic. Yup, that's my point: On the way to make real looking & feeling (playability) map, you have to stop pretty fast to keep good performance of map, that's why I'm saying about destroyed city
- with it you can make easily end-of-map that nobody will notice,
- you avoid low res skybox which looks good as sky but not as outer terrain, city skyline, etc.
- you can use low number of textures to make many different buildings, that's impossible with not-destroyed one.
- you can make easily small "rooms" and diferent "corridors" which Quake engine loves to draw. Additionally you can scale down textures to get more detailed walls
- except rubble everything looks quite like real world.
I am not saying that you can't do well other types, only that ruined city is the only type you get quite realistic.