Phong + Envmap + Alpha = Possible


BERSERK3R
12-03-2006, 05:39 PM
Read THIS (http://www.hl2world.com/bbs/-vt46068.html)!

This is something I always wanted to achieve but couldn't make it work.
But after seeing this, ideas are popping up like crazy again.

Anyone got this to work, phong + reflections, and even with alpha??

Can't wait to see some creations for DOD:S!
I'll give it a go myself ofcourse.

Oh btw, check this out!
LAVA (http://www.jrporter.com/NEWJR/lavaflow.html) :eek:

I have tried to make paralax mapping to work but couldn't achieve it, but I might have done something wrong though, but I'll keep trying.


W00t, I'm happy!


EDIT:
A sample file from a pack from the shader files:

EDIT2:

I just read this....(crying)

Note that this add-in is intended for MODs(Modifications) of the above listed games, not for the games themselves! This is the add-in does not alter the visual experience of these games, and to be used, a custom MOD must be constructed!

So I hope the DOD devs going to update the code so we CAN use it in existing games!

If this doesn't make you drewl then pigs can fly.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9748/pvkhkphong1lk4.jpg

Watevaman
12-04-2006, 01:50 PM
I must say I drewled. And damn, I gotta get into the phong on textures scene. :D

Wile E Coyote
12-04-2006, 07:46 PM
Yes, I had asked this question already, and I see you (as did I) managed to answer it for yourself:
They haven't coded it in yet.

Aside from the above looking better, the real issue unfolds when you realize that the current phong shaders don't work in shadows so well (i.e. - at all), but the specular enviroment maps do.

To add insult to injury, the phong shaders utilize the alpha channel of the normal map, while the specular envmap shaders utilize the alpha of the base skin. So from a technical point of view, you COULD adjust the alpha channels to different strengths for the different shaders, that is IF the engine was coded to use both shaders at the same time.

For God's sake if I am wrong - somebody show me how to set up the VMT file so it does work! I tease you not I will drop my current skinning break and imediately re-do every last one of my skins if it were to turn out possible to have both a phong shader and an eviroment map shader running on the same model at the same time.

BERSERK3R
12-05-2006, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by Wile E Coyote [....]
For God's sake if I am wrong - somebody show me how to set up the VMT file so it does work! I tease you not I will drop my current skinning break and imediately re-do every last one of my skins if it were to turn out possible to have both a phong shader and an eviroment map shader running on the same model at the same time.


I couldn't have said it better myself! ;)
Just from the beginning of my skinning on DOD I tried to get phong and envmaps to work together, but didn't work and I was banging my head why it didn't work.
But yeah when it works, well, read the quote ;)

WHAT ARE THEY WAITING FOR, lets put the code in!!

Trp. Jed
12-05-2006, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by BERSERK3R
WHAT ARE THEY WAITING FOR, lets put the code in!!

1) Percentage of users with hardware capable of utilising shaders that complex (they didn't start adding phong to Source until at least 40% of users had a card capable of using it - thats why they have the hardware surveys).

2) Effort vs. Reward. Theres a gazzilion things you can do with shaders but they have to consider if it brings any pivotal improvement to the game and how accessable it is to the end user.

That said its a nice looking shader, but I imagine insanely costly in terms of the shader rendering pipeline.

BERSERK3R
12-05-2006, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by Trp. Jed
1) Percentage of users with hardware capable of utilising shaders that complex (they didn't start adding phong to Source until at least 40% of users had a card capable of using it - thats why they have the hardware surveys).

2) Effort vs. Reward. Theres a gazzilion things you can do with shaders but they have to consider if it brings any pivotal improvement to the game and how accessable it is to the end user.

That said its a nice looking shader, but I imagine insanely costly in terms of the shader rendering pipeline.

1) Well, if there are people who have the hardware that is capable of utilising those shaders, why not do it for them.
I own a ATI X800XT PE, and that one seems to handle it and my card and rest of the hardware is relatively old.

2) I think weapons could use it quite well.
For example envmapping and phong together is possible and if it's only used for that, well first it looks very awsome and people starting to skin again, showing more interest in the game and modding.
And I don't think you need a much more stronger hardware to render a weapon with envmaps and phong.

So I don't look at dod with ALL models, textures etc. phonged and envmaped and whatever.
Just like Wile and I said about envmaps and phong, it will probably not take much stronger hardware and I only see positive things come from it.

I don't know how much effort it costs to put in in a next update, but that shouldn't be that much I guess.
Implementing doesn't mean that the game would run slow, unless you are downloading stuff that use it and your hardware can't handle it but thats just dumb.

And I do think that there are lots of people can render weapon skins with env and phong together, and if you don't want it just dont download those new heavy skins, its a simple as that, as far I'm concerned, unless it takes a hell of a job to update the engine with this code.

Wile E Coyote
12-05-2006, 07:01 AM
Jed has a point though, and secrectly it was in the back of my mind, I just don't like to say it.
Valve is VERY concerned about performance on older machines. Very, VERY concerned. To the point of obssesion almost. There is another, even less romantic reason. Production vs. resources. Last time I checked Valve has a lot of things boiling on the stove. Funding is going to be spent on them first because they will bring in money; most everyone who is going to buy DOD:S has at the moment (at least in the view of some people). Typically Valve testes out newer technology on its' current releases, then filters them down to the various other games.

BERSERK3R
12-05-2006, 08:12 AM
There is one thing i can really understand is why to focus on this game which will cost time so, money.
And then you could better use that time for a new game which will bring in relatively more money.

But...
We're not talking about DOD really, it's the engine it uses which is the Source engine.
So every game/mods etc. will benefit from it.
And there will most serainly be more source games, which will use those features so why not implement them in the engine already?

It's not like I don't understand Valve why they don't, but I'd like to know why not "not implement them in the engine already".

Or does DOD itself need to be updated heavily to support these new features.

Trp. Jed
12-05-2006, 05:13 PM
Most likely, yes, DoD would need to be updated to some degree. To quote from my own experience with the SDK...

We built Ham and Jam off off the original HL2 SDK codebase (AppID 220 if so inclined). Now that version of the engine is fixed and doesn't contain access to all the phong shaders, etc. that came about with EP2. For us to get access to phong, we had to shift to the new engine, that means using either HL2DM (AppID 320) as a codebase or using the new Source SDK base (AppID 215).

This worked, in terms of giving us access to the phong shader however it broke other things, most severely physics objects would fall through all our maps. Also, switching to the newer version of the engine didn't give us automatic access to HDR. To utilise that we have to recomplile the mod with the new SDK codebase which was released after EP1.

Now, obviously at Valve the DoD team have access to the new source way before us plebs and anything that is shader based in terms of materials is pretty transparent to use with an engine update. However to some degree some features may require integrating/merging new code for the underlying "base" engine which requires time and also care not to fubar.

Obviously HL2 is episodic and with each new episode comes a new engine update with new technology and features. Because HL2 is telling a story and the need to atmosphere, immersion, etc. it's more likely that HL2 itself will drive the addition of tech. to Source.

The multiplayer Valve games like CS:S and DoD:S I would assume just inheret graphic/visual tech from the current in-house version of Source and I would assume that adaptation is based on benefit vs. effort. As I mentioned, a new shader is pretty much just a case of switching to the new engine version (it's all we had to do to get phong in HaJ) but any issues from your existing codebase not being compatible with the new engine could cause problems. I'm talking about things like entities being dropped, replaced or taking different parameters. If something in your game/map using the old system it could well break (hence, you can't run HL2 on the HL2:EP1 as stuff breaks badly).

*If* Valve develops new shaders like the one you've shown then it's *likely* that a future version of DoD:S may have it available assuming it uses the new engine version. However thats down to their needs for EP2 and from personal experience, when your trying to get a product out the door it's good not to be distracted with trying to add new tech just because it's new. I'm pretty sure Jason Mitchell et. al. at Valve have some cool new stuff in the pipeline but I would expect their focused on keeping to the plan to get EP2 out.

Sabre
12-06-2006, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Trp. Jed
Obviously HL2 is episodic and with each new episode comes a new engine update with new technology and features. Because HL2 is telling a story and the need to atmosphere, immersion, etc. it's more likely that HL2 itself will drive the addition of tech. to Source.


I do hope though that Valve will return to the previous episodes and update them with the new effects when done. I'd really like to see HDR, , phong effects, rim lighting and any other effects they cook up between now and Episode 3 put into Half-Life 2, complete with properly reflective seawater (a'la Lost Coast) for Highway 17 and the snazzy torch-battery-has-run-out effect. But it would be better to do so at the end, once the episodes are done and there is a lull in what Valve is working on.

BERSERK3R
12-06-2006, 01:07 PM
First I like to thank you Trp. Jed for your detailed information.

So I can conclude that we won't see a update of dod anytime soon, but....
What about DOD2 ;)
I think you know where I'm getting at.

Although DOD is still very fun to play, I still find it a bit outdated and that's not to strange when you take the default textures, as example and like you said it uses the first engine sorta speak.

So I think it would be cool if they would work on a "sequal" of DOD.
So that would mean:

- Fix bugs
- "fix" the "useless" class(es) and weapons.
- Add new (bigger) maps.
- And ofcourse more special effects (hud/sfx, and whatever)
- Not sure about destroyable objects used in EP1 or other source game, but that would be nice to see in dod.
- New game modes (vehicles etc.)
- Medic?
- Revive ;)
- Bleeding system ;)
- New FOV ;)
- Model modifications like not using same hands on each side (axis and allies).


So not only could they fix things, upgrade engine (better, nicer graphics), but also put things in they can't or won't put in this version like bleeding, and medic etc. and even remove or change some classes.

But that's up to them ofcourse, but I personally don't mind a "part 2" of DOD:S.

So am I the only one who thinks about this ("dod2" with it's modifications)?

213
12-31-2006, 03:25 AM
to be honest, i don't see much improvement. i can see more detail on the glare on the helmet than usual, but i don't see how that could be so demanding

oh and i've gone to the pvk ii website and the trailer turned me off a bunch. it was(to me at least) obviously a boring frag fest with graphics as its only saving grace. i hvae no idea why pirates, vikings, and knights are fighting each other, let alone existing in the same time period.

213
01-03-2007, 01:34 PM
to the naysayers:

i just finished playing that mod with a 65 fps constant. yep, all shader options full

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